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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 03:44pm PT
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John L said:
During the first or discovery phase, that is the first wrangling of the given creative task, once we are narrow focusing our attention on this or that we often lose most sense of self awareness.
John G said:
When others are not around and I am involved in a math problem I always talk to myself, saying things like What happens if I use a sine functions here? Oh that doesn't work, I'll try an exponential function, hmm . . . that doesn't work either ...
I'll offer suggestions to myself, then try them in a focused manner.
This reminds me of top-down systems design (such as for creating computer networks or distributed applications) where we envision things "at a 30,000 foot level" and create linkages between "black box" components, and then drill into the details of what comprises the black boxes. It's too much to keep all the details in your head at once, so it needs to be compartmentalized and envisioned at different layers of abstraction and detail.
One might consider that component of self-awareness as the part that is navigating in these seas of abstraction to decide how far in our out to zoom, which parts to shift to, etc. A conscious act is required to make some of these decisions, but having continual awareness and attention of that conscious activity can inhibit the efficiency of thinking about the problem at hand. That actually happens to me often, and as a defense mechanism I turn to Supertopo to get a sort of mental reset. Then I reengage the problem and hopefully shed that conscious awareness and become immersed in the problem at hand.
I'm not sure if Supertopo (or the Internet in general) is an asset for me or a crutch which over the years has inhibited my ability to stay immersed in the moment. I think there used to be fewer tempting distractions and it was easier to overcome the struggle of self-awareness and meta-thinking about the project and get into the core thinking of the project itself.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 19, 2017 - 03:58pm PT
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I'm not sure if Supertopo (or the Internet in general) is an asset for me or a crutch which over the years has inhibited my ability to stay immersed in the moment
I was chair of my mathematics department for several years before realizing the destructive nature of middle-level management: I was losing my ability to stay focused and immersed in a research effort. I resigned and went back to the professor's life of comparative leisure and contemplation. Felt good.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
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Nice post, Nutagain. I use Supertopo for the same reasons - as a brain reset.
And Healje ... Yup! The dudes studying quantum mechanics probably feel the same way about trying to study something you can't classically understand. But then again, perhaps few have the background and erudition of our own Fruitcake, whose studies includes (but are not limited to) astrophysics, ham radio, anger management, a Masters in Trans-Gender studies from Harvard University, chemical engineering, Rolfing, social studies, The Complete Episodes of Beevis and Butthead, evolutionary biology, numbers theory, Transcendental Meditation, Egyptology, Farrier Science, botany, Mortuary Science, Nautical Archaeology, puppet arts, Viticulture and Enology, ancient draftmanship, non-linear coding, rodeo, plus they say he has a wonderful singing voice.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Dec 19, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
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Moose said.
In a 100% deterministic universe, the chance doesn’t exist. Even in the most complicated systems. Incompatible. (Btw, since when the compatibilists won that discussion)?
If you allow for small randomness, then we can talk.
I have tried to point this out several times (and HFCS pointed it out just upthread), the free will problem is not contingent on whether there is 100 percent determinism or not. Certainly if you believe in 100 percent determinism it's a slam dunk, but even if you don't, like me (who seems to have missed out on the sudden consensus that chaos and non-deterministic systems are not part of our universe), this doesn't really change things much. Most of the arguments on one side or the other work perfectly fine with a little randomness. For randomness to be a factor, your system of making decisions would have to somehow utilize this property in some mysterious way. It's really not clear at all how this would work. I look at it like, so what? You can't help yourself in the moment. But now look at the near-infinite possible responses to events that you end up experiencing because you are you and your genes are just so and your long-term memories are just so and your short-term memories are just so. Don't get so hung up on responsibility, HFCS. As a society, we have to take care of bad eggs, period. I can do that just fine without passing some kind of moral judgment (but, of course I do all of the time :))
As a matter of fact, I think that we live in a universe in which chaotic systems do occur. Human decision-making likely has so many input variables (all those interconnected neurons and biochemical algorithms), that chaotic results should be expected, like the weather.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
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...studying quantum mechanics...
The difference being that a hundred years of the study of quantum mechanics has yielded endless insights, understanding, facts, a bounty of allied theories and numerous applications. 2500 years of endless debate on free will by philosophers on the other hand has yielded little other than the prospect of 2500 more years of the same.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 19, 2017 - 05:19pm PT
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If you want to know something about free will and determinism, you would do well to study how decisions are made by the little nematode.
Do a search for "c. elegans decision-making"
Learn about peptide signalling.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
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The difference being that a hundred years of the study of quantum mechanics has yielded endless insights, understanding, facts, a bounty of allied theories and numerous applications. 2500 years of endless debate on free will by philosophers on the other hand has yielded little other than the prospect of 2500 more years of the same.
Healje, the distinctions you make are largely artificial. Many of the "philosophers" are and have been scientists as well. A lot of this has to do with the way your mind works and your expectations, your yin for facts and "knowing" in the classical sense.
Some look at philosophical discussion as lifting weights, as ways to build intellectual vigor and stimulating conversation. Others consider it a waste of time to study anything that does not render a tangible and quantifiable output, a clear and right answer, sooner the better.
The other issue is that you don't seem to understand - or so it strikes me - that the difficulty is not philosophical, per se (philosophy is just an attempt to use logical coherence on a given subject), rather the slippery nature of the subject matter. The problem itself is vastly difficult to wrangle in the ways you are probably used to.
Look at the misfiring that goes on when we try and wrestle down free will by considering decision making and choice in terms of a causal data stream of bucolic cognitive impulses as though they are 1s and 0s, while ignoring the perceptual processes in which that stream arises. Or the fact the the stream also includes emotional, sensate, and who knows what all other eddies that factor in.
And what happens if we live in an infinite realm, where one-directional causality loses most if not all meaning in the classical sense.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 19, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
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there is a path of personal understanding that is meaningful to the human individual.
We can hope so, and that the meaning is worth having.
Not everyone is suited to stand on the shoulders of giants. Including me.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
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a hundred years of the study of quantum mechanics has yielded endless insights,
Whoopi doo so you studied gross materialism inferior energies only.
Any monkey can do that.
But the intelligent class human being studies the superior energies which control the inferior material energies ......
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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healyje: . . . they were not divined through deep thought or studied at any length whatsoever.
The sarcasm. “Divined?” “Deep thought?” It doesn’t seem that you’re paying attention to what’s being written. It’s ok.
Dingus,
With all due respect, your understanding of awareness and meditation is a bit superficial, and you’re not applying the same standards equally. It’s ok. Rationality is a concept; it’s not a law. Ditto for differentiation. PSP understands. Again, if you don’t see it, you don’t see it.
MH2: . . . you would need to be pretty sure of what free will and determinism are.
+1
Ed: If science has priority now, it is because the body of resultant work largely forms our understanding of the world, actually the universe, and those things we find in it. This understanding is quantitative, and that quality allows it to be tested. Unlike other ways of understanding, the method can reform when tests fail, can accept and incorporate new knowledge, can predict new knowledge, and is universally available.
If science has priority now, it’s because it’s socially accepted as the prevailing and most advanced vision of reality that there is. That doesn’t mean that it’s final, accurate, or complete. Again, for a few thousand years, there have been folks who have followed the same path doing the same work with the same results of looking at mind. The fact that it doesn’t qualify as truth according to science's metrics does not mean it is true or false. It’s not philosophy, Ed.
It’s the same damned argument. We see because we see according to what we believe. We all live in our own worlds, Ed. I should think there is plenty of *conflicting* evidence to support that claim. When everyone here on this site agrees about any one thing, then perhaps it would signal that we have found something truthful. But we don’t, and we haven’t. (Again, I wish people would be able to apply the same standards to their own arguments equally as they do to others. It’s indicative of prejudice.)
Jogill: . . . what JL seems to be saying is that one watches one's self while in the process of engaging these steps, watching the very process as it unfolds in one's self during accomplishments and the formation of ideas.
I wouldn’t want to put words in Largo’s mouth (it’s unsanitary), but I’d say that your description is a pretty high-level detachment and centering to be quite that aware for an extended period of time. It happens, to be sure, but 24X7 we’d be talking about a yogi in my view. It’s happening with me, but surely not every hour of every day. The point I’d say that one can take away is that IT HAPPENS, and that leads to new insights about who and what you are. I can’t say how often “my life” shows up in front of me. Words fail, and all interpretations are IMO trash.
healyje: . . . it's never an aspect of any kind of deliberate attempt to 'observe' the process . . . .
YES, YES, YES! I may be over-stepping my understanding, but I’d say it *can’t* be any other way. Deliberation is throwing a monkey wrench into the works.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
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Again, for a few thousand years, there have been folks who have followed the same path doing the same work with the same results of looking at mind.
Too bad you can't seem to say what those results are.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
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The problem itself is vastly difficult to wrangle in the ways you are probably used to.
Is a problem really a problem after 2500 years of wrangling it in every conceivable way and from every possible perspective with nothing to show for it? Might as well be a proxy argument for the existence of god or good vs evil.
Again, for a few thousand years, there have been folks who have followed the same path doing the same work with the same results of looking at mind.
Except nothing could be farther from the truth.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 19, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
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JL: Some look at philosophical discussion as lifting weights, as ways to build intellectual vigor and stimulating conversation
Whoa! Intellectual vigor? To make a conversation intellectually vigorous one starts with a clear idea of what the premises are. Philosophers can't agree on basic definitions, but plow ahead full steam, full of vim and vigor, if not rigor.
MikeL: Again, for a few thousand years, there have been folks who have followed the same path doing the same work with the same results of looking at mind
Never questioning the drudgery and intellectual vacuum of those work hours; the experience of form is emptiness and emptiness is form is a treasure worth the efforts of not thinking for decades. Or so it seems.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 07:52pm PT
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I haven't followed this thread closely enough to know who Fruitcake is, but this description had me laughing hysterically:
But then again, perhaps few have the background and erudition of our own Fruitcake, whose studies includes (but are not limited to) astrophysics, ham radio, anger management, a Masters in Trans-Gender studies from Harvard University, chemical engineering, Rolfing, social studies, The Complete Episodes of Beevis and Butthead, evolutionary biology, numbers theory, Transcendental Meditation, Egyptology, Farrier Science, botany, Mortuary Science, Nautical Archaeology, puppet arts, Viticulture and Enology, ancient draftmanship, non-linear coding, rodeo, plus they say he has a wonderful singing voice.
Dr. G: interesting point about middle management! In the last year I just did something similar... consciously chose a less glamorous position where I am out of the lime light (line of fire is a more apt metaphor) and got away from interrupt-driven work to a role where I can just focus on writing software. Much more enjoyable for me too :)
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
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I'm in the habit of picking up cheap books from library sales. One of the fruits of this foraging was a discovery of Aldous Huxley's "Doors of Perception", a fairly short essay which I'm about halfway through (reading a few minutes at a time):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doors_of_Perception
It seems like it would be right up the alley of most folks following or contributing to this thread. Lots of discussion of mind. I did a quick search and didn't find references to it on this thread but Gnome shared it on another thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=802141&tn=80
Wikipedia is a bit parsimonious in recounting what for me is the most significant part... the intellectual musings of Huxley, many related to the concept of Mind, that form a series of asides and conceptual connections as he discusses his perceptions during a Mescaline experiment.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 09:41pm PT
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The experience of form is emptiness and emptiness is form is a treasure worth the efforts of not thinking for decades.
Everything becomes revealed.
While the gross materialist works like an ass to try and get a little taste by licking the outside of the jar .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 20, 2017 - 12:35am PT
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...get a little taste by licking the outside of the jar
Gotta remember that one for the next time I'm talking with a sport climber...
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 20, 2017 - 06:04am PT
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MikeL,
Dingus,
With all due respect, your understanding of awareness and meditation is a bit superficial, and you’re not applying the same standards equally. It’s ok. Rationality is a concept; it’s not a law. Ditto for differentiation. PSP understands. Again, if you don’t see it, you don’t see it.
Perhaps this earlier post below from MikeL gives us a hint as to why he does not give the details of how it is so that, and you’re not applying the same standards equally ? He says, "Rationality is a concept" but fails to note? it has a referent.
What I see (most of the time, unless i’m having an argument with my wife) is a freedom that comes from having almost no reference points, spontaneously arising, dripping with potential and possibilities that can’t be enumerated. When nothing is concrete or serious, then one is a “nowhere man.” Then one sees total equanimity, absolute loving-kindness, infinite compassion, and a calm joy.
Superficial? Wow?? Okay, and having been a meditator I certainly no longer bellow lines like, one sees total equanimity, absolute loving-kindness, infinite compassion, and a calm joy .
But I do understand how your replies sound so off the wall ...
...is a freedom that comes from having almost no reference points, ...
Maybe you would make more sense on this thread if you would instead have written, (most of the time, unless i’m having an argument with my wife or on ST). She likely holds you to a standard of rationality that we do not see here? And getting into rationality takes you out of "nowwhere man" which is the pacifier and therapy you need? Fine.
Let's get some chatter from a group of people coming down from an LDS trip? Nevermind my dyslexia. It just maybe would have the likes of, total equanimity, absolute loving-kindness, infinite compassion, and a calm joy ........
And these also, are just products from the mind. Kinda la Largo with content to awareness, but not the essence of what is mind.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2017 - 06:31am PT
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This IS the "Mind Thread"
One does not need to make sense on this thread as the "Mind" does not make sense either ..... :-)
Only the soul itself can make sense.
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