Wings of Steel

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Da_Dweeb

climber

Aug 21, 2011 - 04:17am PT

Geez Louise, y'all. I go off for the day and there's 100 posts sitting here waiting to be read. I love this thread to death, but it's eating like an hour each day just to keep up. Can someone give me the Cliff Notes bullet point version? ...Maybe I should take it on myself to create a WOS daily digest post...

drewsky

climber

Seattle

Aug 21, 2011 - 04:48am PT

Cliff notes:

First ascent team for WoS garners great controversy over their climb in part because of a 'locals only' attitude prevalent at the time, but also because of their actions and, presumably, their personalities.

30 years later, amazingly, the matter is far from settled. One of the first ascent team has written a book about the climb. A few active participants and at least a hundred onlookers bandy wordy, meandering forum posts about increasingly minute concerns, boiling and boiling, hoping for something meaningful to precipitate. Meanwhile, they forget which questions they're trying to answer and their pettifoggery reaches a new level of intensity and pointlessness.

Promise of an answer begins to emerge, but of course it hinges on a movie of the second ascent of the aforementioned climb that will only be finished if it receives enough funding. Paradoxically, the movie answers nothing as the parties involved realize that the argument was never about the difficulty, integrity or quality of the route itself; rather, they simply never accepted each others' opinions and, after incidents including ropes soiled in feces and numerous altercations nearly three decades ago, cannot, for some unknown reason, move beyond this quagmire of guilt, accusation and self-doubt.

Alternate ending: Ammon and Kait's ascent somehow validates the first ascentionists' efforts as humans, forcing their doubters and critics (who have also somehow harbored their feelings with the same ardor as the first ascent team) and also themselves to strike a more conciliatory tone. Everyone rides off into the sunset together and the Wings of Steel thread only reaches 3000 posts in 2025 after bumps for the 3rd, 4th and 5th ascents; 500 of those posts will concern the chicken rivets and hook enhancements drilled by the 4th ascent party, who will spend the next 30 years on the internet arguing about ethics.

Da_Dweeb

climber

Aug 21, 2011 - 04:50am PT

Drewsky, you are an amazing individual, and I thank you kindly for your most recent post.

drewsky

climber

Seattle

Aug 21, 2011 - 04:54am PT

I've come to believe this thread is a fascinating psychological study-in-the-making and thus somehow worth the time required to wade through its copious muck.

Da_Dweeb

climber

Aug 21, 2011 - 05:12am PT

Werner -

Providence you can't fight it sometimes and terrible things happen and you sometimes end up right in the middle of it.

I hate all this sh'it .......

All right. So, I'm a bit drunk right now, I apologize if I say or assume anything stupid. But I'mma gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that you are being sincerious. Sinceriously sincerious. If you are, I'm thinking maybe there's a possibility we can talk about what to do to bring all of this to a genuine conclusion. Wait, wait, Werner, don't naysay just yet or say that people are too "damaged" or don't want peace or whatnot just yet. I don't think that a real attempt at genuine reconciliation or acknowledgment has yet been made and I think it's possible we could do so if we join forces like a pair of big fuzzy Superfriends. I think Drewsky's got a point, and I follow what he's saying. The big obstacle to any progress being made in this debate is that (dun dun dun DUN): Nobody's acknowledging anyone else's opinion.

Richard, before you get upset regarding this post, don't get me wrong I'm not excusing anybody's behavior nor saying they were justified, I think it was a travesty what was done to you then, what happened over the last 30 freaking years, and what's happening now. I think also that you're in a position where, as you said, it's only the minority who believe otherwise. I think that puts you at an advantage in this situation, honestly.

At the same time - Werner help me out here if you will - I think there's been so much of a polarization on the issue that no one can even acknowledge the point of view of anyone whose opinion differs from theirs. I think that - apologies or forgiveness notwithstanding - this issue could be discussed a lot more productively from the point of view that people had reasons to do what they did that were totally valid to them. I'm not asking for judgments on those reasons, I'm just saying that in their minds it made sense, and that's why they did it. Yes, I know that doesn't justify their behavior, I'm not asking for agreement with their justifications of their actions, simply acknowledgment of where they were coming from. And for there to be some kind of resolution here, that needs to happen on both sides of the issue.

Doing that, I think, is the big step that's needed to bring about an end to the conflict in such a way that folk on all sides can walk away from it. I know for damn sure that won't happen if I'm the only one saying it. So, Werner, it's an acknowledged fact that you are a generally well respected and regarded individual, and that puts you in one hell of a position to do a lot of good on this issue if you so choose. Mind you I'm not saying you're responsible for what other people do, think, or feel, I'm only saying that your opinion has a lot of weight. If you so choose, we - or even just you (if you want it that way) - could push for arbitration, mediation, and peacemaking. Is this something that sounds agreeable to you? Let me know what your thoughts are.

Da_Dweeb

climber

Aug 21, 2011 - 09:40am PT

You have GOT to be kidding, right?

I'm sorry, was I overdoing it?

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Aug 21, 2011 - 10:08am PT

Long as your liver can handle it.

Da_Dweeb

climber

Aug 21, 2011 - 10:26am PT

Bladder's what I'm worried about more at the moment.

I still stand by that post though. Looking back, I'm not seeing any typos. That's a good sign.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Aug 21, 2011 - 10:46am PT

I've always been willing to talk with rational people.

Some evidence to the contrary, I'm not a complete jerk. :-)

But I won't be "conciliatory" or codependent. If you think there's "reconciliation" to be had that doesn't involve me saying anything like, "Well, guys, yeah, I guess I can see why you reacted the way you did, and, it's, like, okay. We all got a little over the top back then," or some tripe like that, well, I'm all ears.

"Personalities" might have been a factor, but that's not an explanation or justification.

"Turf mentality" was certainly a factor, but that's not only NOT a justification, it ADDS to culpability, especially in a NATIONAL PARK!

And so on....

And you show me the last time "turf minded" surfers spent decades in an orchestrated defamation campaign.

Just sayin'.... (as they say)

So, whaddayawantfromme???

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Aug 21, 2011 - 10:59am PT

I'm only putting up money if it goes to DVD with drewsky's alternate ending.

Da_Dweeb

climber

Aug 21, 2011 - 11:07am PT

But I won't be "conciliatory" or codependent. If you think there's "reconciliation" to be had that doesn't involve me saying anything like, "Well, guys, yeah, I guess I can see why you reacted the way you did, and, it's, like, okay. We all got a little over the top back then," or some tripe like that, well, I'm all ears.

Indeed, indeed. That’s certainly not what I’m asking. In addition to personally not seeing that as the case, further were I to ask that, I would be adding insult to injury and furthering the mess. No, I'm not for one second going to say that you should be saying it's okay, because what happened wasn't okay by any stretch of the imagination. As far as I'm concerned there's no 'compromise' on that point. No, what I'm hoping can happen -on both sides- is the statement of just the first half of that sentence.

"Well guys, yeah, I can see why you acted the way you did. You had reason X,Y,Z."

No values attached to it. No approval, no disapproval, just a statement that indicates an understanding of the other's reasoning. Not followed by an argument, or name calling, or value judgment of any kind.

The idea is to demonstrate an understanding of the other party's position. It's also to try something different from the point-counterpoint/attack-counterattack approach which has been very effective for a number of reasons in the past, but doesn't seem to be particularly productive in the present for moving toward a resolution.

I'm also asking for Werner's help, because to see this come to an end, it's important that the other side of the equation be able to do the same thing. Also - and I should make this clear - I'm not asking you - or them - to do this right _now_. I'm saying that with some time, discussion, and planning, possibly even over the next couple of days, it could be done. Ideally, here on the forum for everyone to see.

There's a lot of very good reasons I think, for both parties to do this. Not least of which being that when Ammon and Kait give their statement of what they found on the climb, what they say will be the gold standard of objective investigation on the matter. Resolving the issue before their articles or movie are released will a) allow for the saving of significantly more face on the part of the party that is in error, and b) reflect significantly more positively toward those parties that actively try to make peace with the matter - and each other - beforehand.

There are a few other reasons I can name, but perhaps it's a discussion to continue privately, or later in the day, as it's now way past my bedtime.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Aug 21, 2011 - 11:47am PT

"The truth that the cowardly choppers HAD to have seen as they were jugging the fixed lines in the night: "Hey, where are all the bolts and rivets we came up here to chop? There aren't hardly any here! HOW the hell did these guys get up this section? THIS is no bolt ladder!" It was RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM that very night!"

Yes, this bit has always been amazing to me. If you grab a pair of binoculars, you can see from the ground that it's not a rivet ladder. And it's certainly obvious while standing in your aiders that the bolts and rivets are very far apart, resulting in long, scary and dangerous runouts.

The choppers must have been blind drunk not to have realized this while dangling from a fixed rope.

Edit: Speaking of localism - I really enjoyed the link above. As a collective group of sportmen, I have never met bigger @ssholes than the surfers in Hawai'i, especially on Oahu.

east side underground

Trad climber

Hilton crk,ca

Aug 21, 2011 - 12:30pm PT

localism rules...... go HOME kook .............heh heh heh.... you too pete eh?

WBraun

climber

Aug 21, 2011 - 12:32pm PT

Ya know ....

Richard and Mark were not the first and only ones to suffer under this type of behavior.

For example;

Even Ron Kauk was heavily attacked verbally for starting "The Official" rap bolting.

Bachar and his goons went ape sh'it over that. Called him all kinds names and said he's officially done as far as climber.

Fuking hilarious.

Ron knew it would probably happen and was ready for it. He'd stand right in your face and call ya out and kick your ass if it came down to that.

He had the balls too stand up for what he believed whether right or wrong against this mentality.

Charlie Porter was a victim too.

There's no free ride in this world .....

east side underground

Trad climber

Hilton crk,ca

Aug 21, 2011 - 12:34pm PT

Kauk= LOCAL ...... HERE HERE!

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Aug 21, 2011 - 12:37pm PT

Good points, Werner.

The difference between Ron Kauk's tale and that of Mark and Richard is that Ron was attacked for what he actually did - the truth. And as a Local, he probably got away with more than if some Outsider, like say Alan Watts, suddenly showed up and started rap bolting.

Mark and Richard were attacked mostly for what they were assumed to have done, but for the most part, didn't actually do. The attacks on the WoS guys were mostly based on lies, and continued for a very long time afterwards.

tarek

climber

berkeley

Aug 21, 2011 - 12:46pm PT

for the 100th time I ask myself why I return to read thru this kind of crap on ST. looking for something to "precipitate" is correct, I guess. Actually, that never happens. best stuff on ST is someone describing details of a climb, or ways to improve your chances of survival, or how to train or something like that.

but my skim selects the post on this pile that seems best to me:

Warbler wrote: This whole WOS thing is like The Jerry Springer Show of climbing.

Makes me embarrassed to be a climber, or associated with Yosemite climbing.

The only criticism I might muster for the route is that it's not a completely independent line, but the start is outrageously independent, so that makes up for the finish, really. El Cap is infested with contrived lines, at least WOS gives its neighbors breathing room.

15 "enhanced" hook placements? BFD 30? BFD It's AID climbing. It's better to enhance a hole with a drill bit and put a rivet in it, as long as you fess up on the hole count before the Ethics Police? Whatever, guys.

How come there isn't this type of interest in free routes on EL Cap on ST, or elsewhere in The Valley? That's where the positive energy is going.

Maybe aid climbers just drink too much...

When a few of us ventured out onto the slabs of MCR, leaving the crack systems behind, there were a few grumblings from the previous generation about bolts, drilling and indistinct lines. Fuk those guys, I remember thinking - climb the route before you voice your opinion about it.

Didn't someone say "climbing is anarchy"?

It was and it should be.

Viva Harding, he climbed the thing first

End of rant.

WBraun

climber

Aug 21, 2011 - 12:47pm PT

No it's the same Pete.

It was assumed that if Ron Kauk did it then every Gym Jones would swarm to the Valley and rap bolt the sh'it out of the place.

Everyone pretty much knew Ron knows what he's doing.

It's the FEAR that drives this stuff.

Some people know how to rap bolt intelligently where it's warranted.

Some yahoos rap bolt everything in sight like maniacs.

Edit: By the way climbers in general are not saints. They operate predominately in the mode of passion. So this kind sh'it will happen.

Maybe Richard and mark are saints? I wouldn't know .....