The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Jan 20, 2015 - 08:29am PT

"I have 102,734,242,901 confirmed kills." -God

This morning's tweet.

.....

If you can speak metaphorically (eg, God bless you, God only knows), then you can practice metaphorically (to pay your respects, to give thanks, to show gratitude).

Seems you could make that argument / take that approach.

See you in church. ;)

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Jan 20, 2015 - 09:55am PT

Two on the spot posts fructose. I'm just tuning in after being away for a few days and after having a near death experience last night crossing the Continental Divide in a blizzard. The weathermen got the forecast wrong and the blizzard started 12 hours early. I crossed Vail and Loveland Passes (11 and 12 thousand feet respectively) before any snowplows or sand trucks were out. Three inches of powder on black ice, doing 20 miles and hour in what is normally a 65-75 zone and still slipping and sliding in a Jeep.

I turned the radio off to have no distractions and was in a state I would call hyper alert for two and a half hours. It was a kind of moving meditation without thought but it was not the same as the one experience I've had with my discursive mind being turned off for no apparent reason while meditating eyes open on the spot where sky meets East China Sea. The no mind of driving was volitional (many cars just pulled off and stopped) whereas the beach experience was not something I consciously did. It just seemed to descend on me. It too was a moving meditation as I later walked up and down for a couple of hours, unable to form a single thought though my body worked obviously.

My guess is that periods of intense concentration whether gymnastics or climbing or reading and thinking to the point of exhaustion facilitate the other state until it happens, but as PSP and Largo have said, it is not something one attains whereas I did have a sense of attainment when I descended out of the mountains still alive.

MikeL

Social climber

Seattle, WA

Jan 20, 2015 - 11:02am PT

John M: . . . non attachment to outcome.

Hear, hear. Yes. Tough to achieve (pun).

It is certainly possible to see what some call “misfortune” with heart, head, and gut and not be overwhelmed or taken-away by any of one of those *kinds* of understanding / consciousness. The feelings, thoughts, and instincts about “misfortune” arise, to be sure, but they also evaporate. Why? How? It’s the mind at-work, and what a an amazing piece of work it is. (I mean that in every sense.) Even what one thinks is despair is evanescent. There despair apparently is, but you can’t quite put your finger on it. Despair is a manifestation generated by the most energetic and creative “thing” in the universe.

With all due respect, John, I don’t think anything can break a heart. The heart may get ‘hiccups’ or seizures as it were. If a person wants to be without a feeling or thought or interpretation, it’s possible to let it go. I know that appears immensely difficult, especially when one gets taken away by those things (obsessions).

The Buddhists say there are four immeasurable qualities that one can take refuge in no matter what appears. They are: equanimity, loving-kindness, compassion, and joy. All are associated or connected to emptiness, strangely enough.

Most of us don’t get obsessed when we watch a TV program or a movie. We know it’s ultimately a movie or TV program, and we momentarily we suspend our belief systems. (Now, the narratives of football in Seattle or Green Bay, on the other hand, . . . that’s a different kettle of fish.)

Look, “disillusionment” simply means to let go. It doesn’t mean despair. It means getting rid of illusion.

I tend to introduce this notion in most of my classes. For 3/4s of a quarter, I teach “the stuff” of the OD, OT, strategy, organizational effectiveness, ethics, industry analysis, and there are many terms and concepts for the students to assimilate and integrate and apply in case studies. Once they have put things together and start to understand the ideas, I then tell them with some humor that none of those things are real: not markets, not organizations, not industries, not strategy, not organizational designs, . . . none of it. Up to that time, content has become so serious and concrete to them, and the seriousness and concreteness of theory, terms, and application gets them all twisted emotionally, mentally, and even spiritually as they work on big term reports. They’re trying so hard to understand. (Sure, I’m pushing and challenging them at every turn, gently but firmly.)

At first the students give me that look in the headlights: “What?!” And then I tell them that all of those terms, theories, and ideas are there to introduce them to a field of study (where language is a sign of competence) so that they can become functional members of communities. But the seriousness and concreteness they exhibit—initially useful but later limiting—does not allow them to listen to closely, to play with data and ideas, to see the objects of conversations rather than focus on definitions, the terms, or what an idea is *supposed to be.* They can lighten-up and enjoy the practice of a profession, the work, for what it is. They can relax, have some fun, be with and interact with other people in a community they’ve found themselves in.

What my students show is one example of disillusionment. (Especially the smartest ones.) I tell them: first learn who and what you are. Then express yourself in what ever role you’ve come to find yourself in. It’s a form of improvisation. It’s free form. It’s like climbing.

My wife is focused now on a feeling of meaninglessness, John, and I’m there with her by her side. It is possible to let go of it, because indeed, even That does not matter.

First a person can figure out who and what he or she is, and then allow him or herself to express that as fully as they can in the role they’ve found themselves in. Creativity, play, improvisation, authenticity, being present, timelessness, spacelessness, “the unborn,” simple unelaborated awareness, perfect clarity, peace, naturalness, engagement, the Tao, the action of non-action are all right there.

Of course, so is the illusioned mind “working everything out.” It, too, is right there. :-)

P.S. Glad to hear you are well, Jan.

DMT, :-)

John M

climber

Jan 20, 2015 - 11:34am PT

Look, “disillusionment” simply means to let go. It doesn’t mean despair. It means getting rid of illusion.

Thanks for the explanation Mike. I had misinterpreted your meaning.

With all due respect, John, I don’t think anything can break a heart.

I suppose a better way to put it is to say that one can receive a wound to ones Psyche, which can cause pain that one feels in ones heart chakra. Yet, I do believe that wounds in ones Psyche can cause something like a broken heart, though that isn't what I really meant about your wife as I had not understood your statement about disillusionment.

To go on about a broken heart. What I believe is that our beliefs create our feelings, and our feeling create a reaction in our physical experience. So when something happens that one believes is terrible, then one feels pain, and that pain over a long period can lead to things like heart attacks. Not that that is what happened with your wife. I'm just expanding on what I believe.

Please forgive me if I am not clear. I didn't sleep well last night. I am experimenting with GABA to help me sleep and last night I didn't take any as it makes me too sleepy during the day. Which then leads me to use caffeine, which then creates an up and down cycle. Early stages yet for me. Anyway Here is an article on it if anyone is interested.

http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/news/GABA.html

to go on about feelings and beliefs. What I have seen in some people is that instead of resolving their feelings through examining their beliefs, both conscious and subconscious, instead they suppress their feelings. ( I am not here saying that you Mike, or your wife are doing this. I am just talking about something that I have noticed among some people. Suppression of feelings is very dangerous to ones health.

I think that I will close. My brain is pretty foggy today. Cheers Mike. and thank you for explaining your position. I can see now that you are supporting your wife.

jgill

Boulder climber

Colorado

Jan 20, 2015 - 11:59am PT

My 1974 Complex Analysis course used Ahlfors and sometime after that my Real Analysis course used Royden

How interesting, Ed. Those texts were used in my courses as well in 1969. When I taught complex variables to undergrads I used Churchill or similar books. I even experimented one semester using Schaum's Outline, supplying the narrative in my lectures, as it is a good reference with lots of worked problems.

And JGill, when you were all pimped up for a 'Go' on a route, hands chalked,looking at the ground, exhaling the last big breath before grabbing the rock. For two seconds there you were experiencing 'no-thingness' and 'open-awareness

Blu, you may be right, but only the Master can answer this question and he's busy elsewhere.

My wife is focused now on a feeling of meaninglessness, John, and I’m there with her by her side

My condolences to you and your wife, Mike. I hope for the best for you both. And for Tim and John M as well.

PSP also PP

Trad climber

Berkeley

Jan 20, 2015 - 01:03pm PT

Thanks for your posts Bushman, Mike L and John M. Listening to your posts about real life suffering made this thread much more real.

Tvash

climber

Seattle

Jan 20, 2015 - 01:36pm PT

Blue picked the Cezanne - at $250 million in 2011 it is currently the most expensive painting in history by a wide margin.

The other artworks I posted earlier were also selected from a list of the world's most expensive (at auction) with two exceptions - one from a currently internationally renowned artist (the work posted would go for several hundred thousand) and one from a local artist (the work would go for about $500)- both friends of mine.

Price or replacement value (amount insured for for paintings like the Mona Lisa, which will probably never go up for auction), constitutes the common language through which which aficionados comparatively value artwork.

Aesthetics plays into value, but for the rest of us not playing the art market, how we value a given artwork is another thing entirely. Personal connection often plays much larger here - a work from a friend, a depiction of a subject with which you have a connection.

Our aesthetic sense - which apparently runs very deep as recounted by those who have retained theirs even in the most dire circumstances- evolved from nature along with us. It's a mix of an appreciation for nature and its compositions, and seeking respite from same in the form of compositions that nature cannot offer - with infinite connections between the two. We like the Golden Rule - a mimicking of nature's assymetrical balance (or what our brains choose to perceive as balance for reasons unknown), and we like symmetry - a sheltering from same by some means of human control.

It's not difficult to imagine how an appreciation of one's surroundings in the form and all the good feeling that provides evolved over the opposite. The need for an escape from nature, imaginary or real, is also understandable.

We know that neural activity promotes neural growth and plasticity. Exercising the brain expands its capabilities. An aesthetic sense heavily exercises the brain - awareness, analysis, appreciation, sharing, creativity. That apparently wasn't a bad thing from a survival standpoint during the process of becoming human.

Dogs have a strong aesthetic sense. After a long day of backpacking my favorite dog Zali and I would sit side by side looking out at the view in silence. Shared contentment.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jan 20, 2015 - 09:04pm PT

Churchill was also used at UCB in the undergraduate math for scientists classes, which I didn't take...

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Jan 20, 2015 - 09:50pm PT

John M: . . . non attachment to outcome.

John that was one of my favorite lines in the threads 40,000+ posts. After my past 24hr moving meditation 'non-attachment to outcome' i now have much to add. But talk with God is :( on here.

About ur sleeplessness, have you ever tried working-out before bedtime?
20-30 or 30-40min of push-ups,sit-ups,pull-ups,bar-dips,squats,, then hop in the sack, and settle down to sleep.. this usually works when im sleeping alone anyway.

paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Jan 20, 2015 - 09:57pm PT

Dogs have a strong aesthetic sense.

This is true. Saw one at the art store the other day purchasing an easel and some awfully expensive oils. Unfortunately his credit card had expired... too bad.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber

Jan 20, 2015 - 10:12pm PT

He later resorted to " kickstarter.com" and was able to obtain funding for his art supplies:

MikeL

Social climber

Seattle, WA

Jan 21, 2015 - 09:09am PT

John M,

Your URL on GABA provides a lot to digest. Didn’t know or haven’t heard of that. (Yikes.)

I think you’re perfectly clear, John. My wife is just fine, really. (Thanks for the concerns, all.) She is smiling a lot and generally pretty happy most of the time these days. It’s just that her old stand-by mechanism for feeling valued and useful seems no longer available to her (work). I suspect she feels a little groundless these days. She has a bit of an addictive personality (drawn to multi-tasking, stressful situations, big projects, lots of authority, do-or-die situations, control, emotional ups and downs of drama, staying busy). That was a different kind of “fullness” than what I think she’s now starting to experience now.

Although some of this may sound negative, I cherish her. These days there is a certain amount of absurdity in the air around us. I watch and try not to interfere too much. There’s really nothing that I can do about any of it, anyway. It’s her experience. I’m just an actor in her movie.

Yesterday afternoon I finished prepping for class and made way to the gym. We have a good one in our high rise, and to get to it I travel through an amenity level where there is a community bar, a commercial kitchen for large parties, a huge dining room, and a parlor with coffee tables, comfy chairs and couches looking out onto a major avenue. People who work at home here go there to meet with clients, team members, or just escape from their home offices. It’s usually a quiet place.

On my way, I see my wife in a chair working on her computer, phone in hand. We see each other and come together in a quick peck. I say: “How’s it going?” as I walk away. She says, “Great! The bosses are out, so I’m working here today.” I reply with a smile and continue walking toward the gym. “See you later,” I call out behind my back.

Then I remember this conversation with you guys here on ST, and I stop and turn around. “You seem pretty happy. So, has meaning in work returned for you?”

She hesitates. “No.” She beams a smile. “I’m having fun.”

Viola.

MikeL

Social climber

Seattle, WA

Jan 21, 2015 - 09:15am PT

In contemporary Western society, the charnel ground might be a prison, a homeless shelter, the welfare roll, or a factory assembly line. The key to its successful support of practice is its desperate, hopeless, or terrifying quality. For that matter, there are environments that appear prosperous and privileged to others but are charnel grounds for their inhabitants–Hollywood, Madison Avenue, Wall Street, Washington, D.C. These are worlds in which extreme competitiveness, speed, and power rule, and the actors in their dramas experience intense emotion, ambition, and fear. The intensity of their dynamics makes all of these situations ripe for the Vajrayana practice of the charnel ground.

Not for the faint of heart:

https://vajratool.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/vultures-and-charnel-grounds-east-and-west/

Tvash

climber

Seattle

Jan 21, 2015 - 09:42am PT

Zali's aesthetic priorities:

Foodies (cuisine)
Squeaky Camel (music)
Stinky Football (found object sculpture)
Beddies (interior design)
Walkies (performance art)
Digging (conceptual art)
SQUIRR...!!!!! (martial arts)
Meditations on the asymmetrically balanced twilight landscapes to attain a no foodies, toy, or squirrel (experiential arts)

I forgot to add her interest in fashion.

WBraun

climber

Jan 21, 2015 - 09:47am PT

The supertopo so called mediators on the material platform are nothing but Sahajiyas
because they really have no real clue what meditation really is.

It's not so simple that one just plain interprets and guesses all the time ....

Tvash

climber

Seattle

Jan 21, 2015 - 10:04am PT

You will have to climb the Mountain of Eternal Beddies and consult with The Great Zali about that.

Bring snackies. Stinky ones.

The Great Zali is heavily into material gratification.