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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Pacarockhound quoted Tioga:
Huh, if you got internet access for an hour or so wouldn't you be checking out more info on your tomorrow's big climb/trip you get up for at 3am, and checking the weather forecast as well, especially you're basically killing time? If there's nothing found in his pages, wouldn't it speak against a big climb with long approach to a new, not previously visited destination.. I dunno, I might be wrong, but just kind of odd. Tioga, this is an interesting point. What do others think about this?
I think this may mean that at the time of that first library computer session that Matt either (a) had a specific climbing/hiking plan for the next day that was so well-developed that he didn’t need to research it further, (b) had no specific plan but had some well-researched possibilities or (c) had no particular plans for Wednesday.
Though (a) is possible, I think the evidence points toward (b) or (c). As Tioga implies, even if Matt had had a previously decided well-developed plan at that point, wouldn’t he have done searches regarding his destination, just to see if there was something new? From Tiffany’s report about that first internet session, it sounds like Matt was more focused on heading on to Colorado.
(I don’t know whether Tiffany has had the chance to wade through more of the huge number of library records for the 16th to see whether Matt signed up for any more internet sessions after that. It’s free to use the PCs but you have to sign up for hour-long sessions and then if the library is busy may have to wait until you can sign up again.)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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I’ve been thinking about the timeline in relation to the new info re the conversation with Arnold and the library records.
Thursday, July 11 -- Matt took the shuttle and climbed Clyde Minaret (solo).
Friday – he did solo climbs in the Mammoth Crest area, called the repair shop, and had dinner with the Morales family. According to Jill, Matt told Arnold about past and future climbs and showed him photocopied pages from Secor including the page with Ritter and Banner as well as a page with Lyell. He said there were two climbs he wanted to do before leaving Mammoth, one being in Yosemite. He mentioned difficult moments in the Minarets and appeared very interested in the Ritter/Banner page.
Saturday -- he climbed Unicorn peak (solo; Yosemite).
Sunday – we don’t know.
Monday –got up early; unconfirmed report that he went to Tuolumne to climb some domes.
On Tuesday the 16th, he went to the library, went online, and did texting and calling.
At least in his web session from ~10:50am to 11:50am PST (we don’t know yet if there were other sessions), though he appears to be looking at sites of interest to him, it doesn’t look like he was researching a particular climb.
At 3:00pm he sent a text and at 3:06pm called his parents and spoke for 24 minutes; he was just south of the library. Then at 4:29 and 4:35pm, apparently from the vicinity of Mammoth Mountain (perhaps near the lodge), he made 2 brief calls to the repair shop. From 4:40pm to 8:34pm, he intermittently sent and received texts that apparently indicated no problem. Then on the morning of July 17, at 2:53am, he turned the phone back on and received a text apparently sent the night before. And that’s all we know.
Now I’ll speculate. Could it be that when Matt called the repair shop late Tuesday afternoon, he had no firm plan for the next day, but still hoped the car was done already or would be done in the morning? (Do we know what they told him? Do we know whether any of his texts that evening indicated when he thought the car would be ready?)
If they said it would be done on the 18th, maybe it was only then that he made a plan for the 17th. If he was near the Mammoth Lodge, could he have then made an arrangement with someone such as a Mammoth employee to get an early ride to a trailhead? I wonder where he had dinner on the 16th – whether he cooked it for himself or went out to eat, and whether he might have spoken with anyone about his plans.
Then, I’m guessing he finished texting and went to sleep. We don’t know whether he got up at 2:53am to start going somewhere, or if he just turned on his phone for some reason and then went back to sleep for a while before taking a shuttle. (His turning the phone on at that hour was unusual for him, but as I’ve argued, maybe not quite as unusual as it seems. He could have turned the phone on in the middle of the night on lots of days, and unless he received a text or voicemail, we’d never know.)
In terms of destinations, maybe the climb Matt wanted to do in Yosemite was Unicorn peak or some dome in Tuolumne, and therefore he had already done it by the 16th. (Or maybe Lyell, which he apparently did not do before the 16th.) As for the other climb, maybe it was Banner or Ritter, but based on summit registers, it doesn’t look like he did either on Sunday or Monday. Maybe, because the car place kept putting him off, he didn’t know how long he’d be in Mammoth so climbing Banner/Ritter on a particular day was less urgent? After talking with the repair shop on Tuesday, maybe Matt decided to do Banner or Ritter on Wednesday. Or he could have made some other plan. But whatever plan he had, his gear indicates that it involved snow, which would be compatible with Banner/Ritter as well as with a few other places.
It would be interesting to know if Matt had any more computer sessions on the 16th and what he looked at -- that might change the above scenario. It would also be great if the detective can get access to Matt’s Hotmail account and more details from his phone records.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Perhaps... but who knows...
Correcto.
I should have said in my opinion. Nobody knows this stuff, but reading about all the searching that's been done and looking at history of similar events, I'll stay with my opinion.
I'm in no way attempting to discourage folks from continuing to look.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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La Hiker....
I spoke to the guy who was talking with Matt in the bus on the way to Tuolomne on the 15th. Matt told him he was planning on climbing some domes but didn't say which one. The guy also asked Matt if he wanted to climb something bigger things together one day and Matt said no he didn't have time, he was waiting on his car and was planning on leaving.
Also, I believe I recall the car shop saying they told Matt the car would be done on the 17th but then called him back after the machanic said it would take another day.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Kensih...thank you...the last thing I want to happen is for someone to get hurt.
La Hiker...Yes...we definitely need the Hotmail account to be checked. Tiffany is working on this with the Pa detective. Without it we are just speculating. Thanks for the summary of events. It keeps us all thinking...
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Oct 10, 2013 - 02:36am PT
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Thanks LA Hiker for summarizing and updating. This jumped out at me:
I wonder where he had dinner on the 16th – whether he cooked it for himself or went out to eat, and whether he might have spoken with anyone about his plans.
I am wondering if he ate at Thai restaurant he had circled on his map? Could someone who lives in Mammoth check with workers there to see if someone remembers serving him on the 16th and if they had a conversation?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
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Jill said:
I spoke to the guy who was talking with Matt in the bus on the way to Tuolomne on the 15th. Matt told him he was planning on climbing some domes but didn't say which one. The guy also asked Matt if he wanted to climb something bigger things together one day and Matt said no he didn't have time, he was waiting on his car and was planning on leaving.
Also, I believe I recall the car shop saying they told Matt the car would be done on the 17th but then called him back after the machanic said it would take another day.
Thanks for the info. It’s starting to sound like Matt was completely ready to leave Mammoth, and that his plans for Wednesday the 17th may have been decided at the last minute (after his call to the repair shop late Tuesday afternoon), though they may have involved an objective that he had wanted to go to for a while.
For me, this puts a little more emphasis on what Matt did on Tuesday the 16th after that call, on places where he might have spoken to people, and even on his texts that evening, though what he did earlier in the day is still relevant. Pacarockhound, while I agree that the Thai restaurant is definitely one place where we might want to talk with the staff and see if Matt had become a regular, if I were planning a big hike/climb, I’d probably eat lightly and turn in at a reasonable hour. Also, note that though Matt ate there early in his visit to Mammoth, he had had two weeks to find other favorite places. Jill, do you happen to know whether Matt cooked most of his meals on a camp stove, or whether he tended to eat out? If he ate out, do you have any sense of whether he had some favorite places?
Because Matt apparently used the NewBelgium beer locator search in his late-morning computer session on the 16th, one possible clue to where he went later that day might be places that serve NewBelgium beer. (Caveats: It was unclear to me whether he used the locator Tiffany mentions to look in Mammoth Lakes or Colorado. Also, unless he had just been turned on to the beer, he probably had figured out the Mammoth Lakes outlets already.)
Of the places that serve the beer on tap, there’s a cluster in the center of town, including one right near the library at Giovanni’s Pizzaria. The Good Life Café serves Mexican food and appears to be closest to the campground. Others include Rafters Restaurant and Lounge, CJ’s Grill, Country Liquor and Deli, and Grumpy’s, Then there's one more towards Mammoth Mountain, which is the area we think Matt was in when he called the repair shop (Clocktower Cellar Pub, which is mostly a whiskey bar, located in basement of the Alpenhof Lodge hotel. Worth stopping by, but doesn’t sound like Matt’s style to me). Then there are also a lot of places that sell the beer to go, in bottles. Jill, do you happen to know whether Matt liked to sit in pubs or restaurants sipping beer, or whether he preferred to buy the beer in bottles and keep it on hand to celebrate after climbs?
Of course, this assumes he even looked up places serving or selling the beer in Mammoth, but maybe it's one clue to figuring out where he might have spoken to people on the evening of the 16th...
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Oct 10, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
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It was unclear to me whether he used the locator Tiffany mentions to look in Mammoth Lakes or Colorado.
The library history appeared that Matt made a "purchase" through NewBelgium's website. I mentioned earlier NB does brewery tours via advance reservation online. Maybe he was planning to do the tour when he got to Colorado. I browsed NB's website. The reservation page requires entering name, email address, etc. NB may have record of Matt's tour reservation even though he was a no-show. They're in Ft. Collins- one of Matt's friends can probably project the date he planned to be in that area.
If Matt purchased something, it should show up in his credit card records. A purchase requires setting up an account, so NB should have record of that, too.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Oct 10, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
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I haven't found a second library session and doubt I will.
I'll be quite honest - out of the logs it bothers me that he checked on the Palisades (I thought it and brushed it off but SplitPants caught it too). The difficult thing about the logs is it's hard, for me anyways, to tell what was actually searched for vs what just lies on a page and caught his eye.
So, checking on Palisades conditions and then the corresponding posts could be something. He had Palisades maps and such in his stuff; but again it's something he did with John.
I double checked for weather to no avail. Some things I hadn't originally mentioned, I think, was him checking out the Gunks site, possible stock he owns, and Australian and Papua New Guinea sites (where he was in Peace Corps).
In relation to the hammertoe stuff, I *think* his search term was actually yellow toe joints. Jeg said in an email that Matt had cut this knee on a climb the previous week too, but I don't know that it was bothering him.
That's all I got. Touched base w detective Toronzi and still awaiting phone records. He thinks email would be a dead end and since Matt appeared to be using his school email, I'm inclined to agree at this point.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 10, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
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… and Papua New Guinea sites (where he was in Peace Corps).
Matt’s death is now even more poignant to me because I am also a former PCV, a life-long lover of the Ritter Range, and have spent time in New Guinea. Where did he serve? What did he do?
The fact that Matt was a PCV in New Guinea tells me one thing. If Matt was like any of the PCVs I have known, the probability that he was duped by someone with evil intent approaches nil. One thing you develop in the PC is a finely tuned BS filter. By necessity you become a good and quick judge of the intent of others. You get post-PhD level, real-time experience in situational awareness regarding people and situations. It’s part of the job.
I pray that Matt’s remains in the Sierra will be found. Given the date on the calendar, it won’t be this year. It’s time to search for peace and acceptance of what has happened.
God bless you all.
g
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Oct 10, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
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Where, in the possible routes Matt might have been on, are the areas where a rock slide could have completely covered him?
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_PeterStarr.htm
http://climber.org/reports/2003/1150.html
http://www.climber.org/reports/2003/1205.html
Dave Daly, who learned about Starr while reading Missing in the Minarets, conceived the idea for the memorial and led the climb. Waczairg persuaded the Stanford Alumni Association to pay for the plaque. It is located about 300 feet below the summit, in direct view of the ledge where Norman Clyde discovered Starr’s body in 1933. Although the climbers visited Starr’s gravesite, Waczairg says they chose a different, more visible spot to place the plaque—at a junction partway up the mountain, where several routes to the top diverge. “Most people who climb the mountain will go directly past the plaque,” he explains.
Waczairg says the climbing was strenuous, dangerous and unthinkable without a safety rope. It gave him new respect for Starr’s ability. “I’ve done a lot of climbing—I’ve never seen a mountain that was so sheer on all four sides. If you fall, you die,” he says. “I would have rated it about a 5.7.” Anything over 5.0 is considered technical climbing, virtually always performed with a rope and another climber. Recalling that Starr had not only climbed with no rope but in tennis shoes, Waczairg says reverently, “The guy was out of his mind.
“He almost made it,” he adds. “It would have been an amazing climb—to this day, nobody has finished it.”
http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2003/novdec/features/plaque.html
Quote Here
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Oct 10, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
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He thinks email would be a dead end and since Matt appeared to be using his school email, I'm inclined to agree at this point.
The school district should have all of Matt's emails...still on their email server, in Matt's inbox, or archived. Given the school's closeness to you, Matt, and the situation, I would think they'd be pretty willing to provide access to his account. True, it probably won't directly find Matt but may have clues. It also may lead to friends, business relationships, bank accounts you didn't know about. If nothing else, some of the email could be "digital mementos" of Matt. I've saved some emails from a friend who passed tragically as a reminder of who he was.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2013 - 02:27am PT
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Tiffany said:
I'll be quite honest - out of the logs it bothers me that he checked on the Palisades (I thought it and brushed it off but SplitPants caught it too). The difficult thing about the logs is it's hard, for me anyways, to tell what was actually searched for vs what just lies on a page and caught his eye.
So, checking on Palisades conditions and then the corresponding posts could be something. He had Palisades maps and such in his stuff; but again it's something he did with John.
Hi Tiffany, did Matt check on the Palisades beyond checking that U Notch/V Notch thread?
If Matt went onto SummitPost’s California forum on July 16th, the “Recent U and V notch conditions – end of July” post would have been at or near the top. Since Matt had recently been to V notch (on July 6th) and had posted about conditions there on July 8th, mightn’t he have clicked on the post in case he had something to contribute?
I remember that you said it looked like Matt emailed someone on that thread. It looks like three people posted on the thread; the posts of one of them, 3Deserts, have apparently been removed because he’s been banned for trolling or something like that. The other two are subhrojyoti and naren, who sound like they’re climbing partners but I’m not sure. Subhrojyoti asks for info re conditions and Naren asks for pictures from 3Deserts’ trip. I doubt that Matt emailed 3Deserts, though of course it's possible because 3D's posts were still there at the time.
Maybe Matt emailed Subhrojyoti with more info? He couldn’t have planned to go there again on the 17th with Subhrojyoti, because Subhrojyoti wasn’t going there until late July. Maybe you could contact Subhrojyoti, explain the situation, and ask whether Matt contacted him??
While there was snow at V and U notch, and it’s not impossible that Matt went there on the 17th, this seems very unlikely to me because (a) Matt tended not to repeat climbs, (b) he would have had to get a long ride -- the Palisades are ~70 miles from Mammoth and (c) it looks like he might not have decided what to do on the 17th until after his late-afternoon calls to the repair shop, which would mean he would have had to lined up that long ride really fast.
Or am I missing something here – did Matt check conditions in the Palisades more extensively than this, or is something else making you uneasy about this?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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Gives a good pictorial of what searchers are up against.
Doesn't look rough at all, like walking around in a corn field in Kansas.
Meh ....
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Oct 11, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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Gene - Matt was teaching at Bema in Papua New Guinea in the Peace Corps. He had to fly in and out of Kaintiba to get to any real towns, I believe. There are some pictures from back in the day here: https://findmattgreene.shutterfly.com/301
----
I don't know why Palisades bugs me...just does. He may have very well been checking up on a thread he'd already posted to on the 8th since he'd done it with John. I emailed the two people on the thread to see if Matt may have emailed them.
Detective Toronzi got the court ordered phone logs to me today. Not much new to report, however it does tell us that the 2:53 am PST text message was actually sent and received at the same time, so Matt's phone was already on. That in itself is strange to me. It really seems as though he turned his phone off every night. I don't see on/off records or any better lat/long info then we had before.
Repair shop tried calling him once each on July 17th, 20th & 22nd; nothing after. The call they made on the 17th was at 2:48 pm PST. No strange numbers. Everything's from PA except for the repair shop and then Det. Hornbeck on the 29th.
~ Tiffany
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Oct 11, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
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Kenesh...
All of Matt's school email was checked by the detective and nothing was found. I covered that at this end since we were colleagues. The only web account left is his Hotmail.
Supermama
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Oct 11, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
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I was searching the net for the clues we had about Matt's disappearance and this is what came up. The last web address is the link to the sight. It is from a hiking group from Reno. They hiked right after Matt disappeared. I thought the gear required matched that of Matt's. See what you all think.
Clyde Variation route description:
http://www.summitpost.org/clyde-variation/155876
At the end of the day, it was a great, if not epic trip! I recommend it. Yes, you do need helmet, ice axe, and crampons – the glacier is ice (no amount of wishful thinking will get your boots that you bought at REI to grip the high angle ice/snow – if you slip you are taking a long, fast ride into a boulder, or over a cliff) and there is rock falling all over the place up there all of the time.
http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=2263769
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 11, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
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From the Ritter climb report linked by Supermama above
This is a strange year – we are in a drought now (second year), which has melted a lot of snow away from a large boulder in the SE col creating a steep and dangerous culvert. I am guessing that such a berghschrund/crevasse/moat could have caught Matt.
Cragman found a big one somewhat to the south and much lower, I believe at the base of the route this group climbed.
There are plenty of them up there. Approaching any of them to look for Matt without a well trained and equipped team is a Very Bad Idea.
Regarding the idea that Matt would have gone to the Palisades.
The Palisades are certainly a spectacular mountaineering destination and very appealing.
However, it is extremely unlikely that Matt went there.
The trailhead is at least 2 hours south of Mammoth, the hike in to any serious snow/ice is at least 2 more hours, even for Matt. Then at least 2 hours to climb anything worth the trip.
And then reverse the process.
He would have to find a partner and/or ride. No public transit would get him there
It's a 12 hour day MINIMUM even if he were walking Really Fast.
And he most certainly planned on picking up his car the next morning.
There was a tragic death in the Tetons early this summer. A client was some distance from his guide, took a slide down a moderate slope and slid into a moat at the bottom of the snowfield. The moat fed a significant stream beneath the snowfield. Even though he was extricated alive and flown out by helicopter, he died (presumably of hypothermia) in the hospital.
The report by Grand Teton Search and Rescue is here.
http://tetonclimbingsar.blogspot.com/2013_06_01_archive.html
See the "Garnet Canyon Fatality" 1/2 way down the page. Photos 2, 3 & 4 show the moat and the SAR team.
This route is traveled by dozens of people daily. I climbed this snowfield last summer and ascended/descended within a few feet of the moat.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Oct 11, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
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I'm repeating myself, but what the heck....Matt had been to the Palisades to climb the V-Notch Couloir, so he new the logistics. Really no chance he went there solo without a car when he's anxious to get his car and head to Colorado.
Mammoth has beautiful surroundings, but the "town" isn't really a town, there's no center, it's a place you need a car or at least a bike. Shady Rest Campground would get old REALLY fast. Getting to the Agnew Meadow trailhead for approaches to the Minarets and Mt. Ritter isn't that easy without a car, but it is the main traffic path & would be relatively easy to hitch a ride. That's the most likely place Matt headed. He had not previously climbed Mt Ritter, the highest peak in the area. Hard to argue he went elsewhere.
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