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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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He is making the point that there is at least a difference between the 2 labels. Those people are already labeled. I believe he is trying to get them to look more closely at why they believe what they do believe.
Why the hell are you attacking him over something so petty? I don't see it as trolling. It's an important distinction.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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Dingus, my post was in response to EdwardT saying that the lable "denier" was an insult to people. I am trying to point out that the label is correct in its usage, and that it is no more an insult than it is to say that I am a believer.
And what's this with your objection to labels? Do you call yourself a climber? What's your profession, is there a label for it? If not "denier," how do you propose we talk about the group of people who do not believe the findings of the IPCC? Should we always say "the people who do not believe the findings of the IPCC and other climate change scientists"? That is an awful big set of words that we can easily boil down to one word, don't you think?
Maybe you object because you don't want to be cast into a crowd that has the label "denier."
Upstream, you posted that you "remain a skeptic of the doomesaying, as I have from the start. Yall's ability to predict the future is as yet to be validated."
Here you are not directly denying that we are in trouble, but you soften your position by saying you don't believe we can predict the future. That is a fairly understandable argument. However, while there have been many whacky predictions (with some no doubt made to cause a stir), I think that your position does land you in the group I'll label as a denier. I say this because many of the predictions about our future have come true, and we are seeing the predictions about the effects of climate change become more accurate as time passes.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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I kind of thought there might be some irony showing up....or was that another conversation I'm think of?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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That argument is deflecting the point that k-man was making. It's difficult in the context of this idiotic thread to talk about labeling without mentioning labeling. It is his thread after all. It's 5 minutes until that propaganda agency NASA launches the Al Gore satellite. Get yer popcorn!
Anyway, as near as I can tell Chief, you have turned somebody's argument that is about labeling into an argument about labeling.
And Dingus, I just read your 1st post on this thread. I think you are a denier in disguise. I came to that conclusion before finishing what k-man said that above! Great minds think alike!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Just for the fun of it I rewrote k-man's OP to make it more palpable for the other side here. I would like for one of the anti-AGW people here to take ownership of it;
The un-k-man wrote: " I read a funny quote: We're treating Mother Earth like Martha Stewart treats her bathroom.
Just wondering, are there any more climate change promoters out there? Or did they all die off from gagging on all the left-wing spin on the subject? "
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Here's an interesting piece on a skeptics POV and how people respond to public skepticism.
If you're going to criticize it, please read the whole piece.
I posted the first part:
I've never supported the British National Party or the Ku Klux Klan. I've never belonged to the Paedophile Information Exchange, or denied the Holocaust, or made a penny from the banking crash.
But if you read The Guardian newspaper's website, you might think otherwise. A commentator on it urged my own children to murder me.
He did so because of one of the many stories I've written for this newspaper about climate change. I first reported on the subject nearly six years ago: my article was about the 'climategate' scandal, where leaked emails showed university scientists were trying to cover up data that suggested their claim the world is hotter than at any time in the past 1,300 years may be wrong.
Ever since then, I have been labelled a 'climate change denier' – a phrase which, since I happen to be Jewish, has particularly unfortunate connotations for me.
And this is despite the fact I believe the world IS warming, and that carbon dioxide produced by mankind IS a greenhouse gas, and IS partly responsible for higher temperatures – and have repeatedly said so.
On the other hand, I also think that the imminence of the threat posed by global warming has been exaggerated – chiefly because the grimmer computer projections haven't been reflected by what's been happening recently to temperatures in the real world.
I do believe we should invest in new ways of generating energy, and I hate belching smoke stacks and vast open-cast coal mines as much as anyone who cares about the environment.
But I also think current 'renewable' sources such as wind and 'biomass' are ruinously expensive and totally futile. They will never be able to achieve their stated goal of slowing the rate of warming and are not worth the billions being paid by UK consumers to subsidise them.
Some would say this makes me a 'lukewarmer' – the jargon for someone who is neither a 'warmist' or a 'denier'. But true believers don't recognise such distinctions: to them, anyone who disagrees with their version of the truth is a denier, pure and simple. The result: vitriol directed my way, the like of which I have never experienced in 34 years as a journalist. Lately, it's become worse.
The remark about my children killing me was made some months ago, after The Guardian published one of several critiques of my work by its climate activist blogger, Dana Nuccitelli. One of the online commenters posted: 'In a few years, self-defence is going to be made a valid defence for parricide [killing one's own father], so Rose's children will have this article to present in their defence at the trial.'
Another commenter compared me to Adolf Hitler. Frankly, I didn't take either of them too seriously. But last week on Twitter, someone else wrote that he knew where I lived, and posted my personal phone numbers.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2934540/What-happens-dare-doubt-Green-prophets-doom.html#ixzz3QUVEGppS
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Edward T; I'm sorry but that is not really that interesting. It's only interesting to an 'up and comer'. It's real squeezable and huggy though.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Edward T; I'm sorry but that is not really that interesting. It's only interesting to an 'up and comer'
Therein lies the rub.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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I did edit the Charmin bit before your post showed. So, I'm doing OK chief?
Therein lies the rub.
You are pretty late to the game Ed. In what you posted above; It would be interesting to know WHY the writer began his climate-writing career with writing about Climate-Gate. He want's you to sympathize with him by pointing out people want to kill him. That's cute. I heard the Governor of Wisconsin recently gaining sympathy by broadcasting how people want to harm him and his family. That's all he has to offer.
Reads like something the old Bruce K, Malnuts or even Bobda
What reads like something you would write Chief?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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You are pretty late to the game Ed.
Well no, he's the sock puppet of a sock puppet. Been playing his same schtick a long time.
I'm sorry but that is not really that interesting.
But you're right, it's not interesting.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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I would like for somebody to take ownership of my modified OP address though! Rick?
The un-k-man wrote: " I read a funny quote: We're treating Mother Earth like Martha Stewart treats her bathroom.
Just wondering, are there any more climate change promoters out there? Or did they all die off from gagging on all the left-wing spin on the subject? "
Chiloe, do you know the family tree of that puppet? It could be handy for those that want to read the thread from beginning to end.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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"But I also think current 'renewable' sources such as wind and 'biomass' are ruinously expensive and totally futile. They will never be able to achieve their stated goal of slowing the rate of warming and are not worth the billions being paid by UK consumers to subsidise them."
So I suppose the FF'S are .
Today was the first time I let my "Alarmist" view see the light of day on this thread,go ahead look it up.
DMT threw me right in the evangelist crowd:)
That said ,DMT also told me to call someone out awhile back who downtrods renewables.
So this guy writing this op-ed is against renewables because they cost so much.
Let's compare what FF's price's have done in the last 40 years to the price's of Solar and Wind technology in that same time span.
Is there any Return on Investment by using FF's?
What about FF's extended cost?
It IS subsidized as well,probably more so than Renewables.
So is he saying he would rather pay FF subsides than Renewables.
Such a hard sell to anyone tied to FF's.[401's,stock ports,etc.]
Some of the reasons he would be labeled.
The Chief,Just want to tell you this.
Building mcmansions for a couple and their dog is one thing and I have plenty.
To build a HOME for a guy who had his leg blown off by an ied is something I cherish.Right down to the Handicap ramp and moving him in.
We even get materials donated and the crew of pros and laymen doing the work is unbelievable .
They should not be left in trailer parks and we have been doing something about that since Desert Storm and before.
And I think we are making good progress with their quality of life issues over here,they have a great community where these homes have been built.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2015 - 07:36pm PT
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Interesting opinion piece EdT. But I found the accompanying articles in the Daily Mail (on Kim & Kanye) more, um, interesting. One wonders how you stumbled on a climate change story in such an esteemed publication!
What is interesting, however, is the way the author describes climategate:
I first reported on the subject nearly six years ago: my article was about the 'climategate' scandal, where leaked emails showed university scientists were trying to cover up data that suggested their claim the world is hotter than at any time in the past 1,300 years may be wrong.
This interpretation of the "scandal" really tips the authors hand, wouldn't you say?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
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Replace the fossil fuel, or watch it get burned.
Its that simple.
That is a fairly simple truth. Pound for pound, nothing compares to the "work" contained in a gallon of black gold.
Our modern way of life depends on the liquidity offered by fossil fuels, be it agriculture, transportation, heating & cooling, manufacturing, medicine, and so on.
Have you ever experienced a slow computer? That would be because it is slower than what you have become accustomed to in the speed of acomputer (unless, of course, it is really broken). It's the say with energy and our way of life. It's very difficult to notch it down, when you are used to a certain level of living.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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rick slid this allegation in:
However, with those like Mike Mann who steasfastly refuse FOIA requests for his data, claiming the deniers are just out to discredit him, it makes it a little difficult, but possible with efforts like those of McIntire and McKittrick.
which is not true on many levels.
First, I believe that Mann has made his data and his analysis available:
http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/Mann/tools/tools.php
you can learn more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Mann_(climatologist);
As for McIntire and McKittrick, rick hasn't read their paper regarding Mann's analysis, nor does he have the ability to work it through and find the errors. Instead, rick relies on some blog to tell him what to believe, and when that corresponds to what rick wants to believe, he declares it true.
Interesting that rick would regurgitate some old stuff. Mann's original analysis has been verified many times over with increasing precision and accuracy and a vastly expanded set of proxies.
There has been nothing to hide at all, why hide something that turns out to be important to our scientific understanding of the climate?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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couldn't get your link to WUWT, maybe they took it down.
FOIA doesn't mean that you get everything you ask for... as the court found in favor of UVa and Mann... and the point of contention was that emails are generally exempt (they were acquired illegally and distributed) from FOIA.
When requests are determined to be frivolous and be intended to vexatious, they do not have to be responded to (with justification).
Although Mann and UVa have been taken to court many times, the complaints have been dismissed.
One might wonder why this man is being persecuted, and he's been shown to have been correct.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Fixed the link for ya. I believe the Viginia supreme court ruling is being challenged, this time with various news media joining the request for information.
I don't wonder why this man is being persecuted. If his studies, publications, and preferred policy is accepted as fact and the path forward adopted it would needlessly subject an entire species (homo sapiens) to needless persecution. The MWP, LIA, and numerous other natural climate fluctuations of +/-3c during the Holocene were real events. The most recent warming event is neither pronounced or sudden in comparison.
Hopefully the imfamous Dr. Mann and his curious case will soon take a far back seat to the current unwinding of the fraudulent alterations of the temp records which is being exposed all over the globe. It's beginning to make front page news. One wonders how long this criminal enterprise can stand.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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^^^...rick's dispatch from Fantasy Land...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2015 - 07:10am PT
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Arnie's in:
MUNICH (AP) — Former California governor and Hollywood star Arnold Schwarzenegger is calling for more to be done to combat climate change, saying it is "the issue of our time."
Speaking Sunday to a small group at the Munich security conference, where he introduced a new policy paper "The Future of Energy," Schwarzenegger said his experience in California was that the adoption of green energy creates jobs and leads to energy independence.
He applauded formal efforts to come to new agreements to reduce carbon emissions and fight global warming, but says there is no need for governments to wait for summits.
He says "we should be fighting climate change right now."
Schwarzenegger says the issue shouldn't be politicized and people should work together for solutions.
He says "we all breathe the same air."
 Now say it together with your best Arnold voice:
We all breathe the same air.
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