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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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CDNN has been busy all day. I phoned over a dozen times!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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I'll be long dead having sold my stuff for major coin.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
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He's probably got stuffed effigies of us all, up on his walls. Bagged and tagged baby.
He was known to lurk at the base of zion walls with a .22 . . .
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
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Nah Dingus, just seeing the pot, hoping to make an inside straight.
If I was trolling I would explain how I could commit a mass murder with all my weapons and one shot.
All I would have to do is post a shot of them and jghedge, philo, aspendougy, dave kos, jebus, kennyt, and norton's heads would simply explode along with a half dozen other whiners.
I can see the headlines now. Then there would be a backlash against cameras. Some Amish guy would call for a ban.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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How do you know we aren't the same?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
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DMD!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Dec 21, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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here is the quote (attributed to George Washington, that circulates on the internet and that burly bob quoted above:
A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
It is inaccurate, and the changes matter.
Here is the actual quote
A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies.
it appeared in Washington's 1st Annual Message to Congress
http://www.teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=324
If you compare the quotes, you can see the difference-- what Washington actually said is evidence that he read the 2nd Amendment as safeguarding the rights of states to form public militias. The first quote makes it sound like he believed in an unalterable individual right to make, sell or possess firearms. But he didn't. Neither did most of the "Founders." Read the book I've now linked several times and even synopsized, Saul Cornell's Well-Regulated Militia.
Guns were frequently regulated and controlled by states and localities in the Early Republic and neither Washington nor any of the other "Founders" batted an eye. If you want to know what Washington would do about the Tea Party or about gun nuts in rural America, you can simply think back to the WHiskey Rebellion: When rural communities in western Pennsylvania (including tenants on many of Washington;'s own land) refused to pay a new tax on corn liquor, ran the tac collector out of town, and started waving guns, Washington raised the Federal army, sent it West, and kicked redneck ass.
Read Tom Slaughter's really fun book on The Whiskey Rebellion: http://www.amazon.com/The-Whiskey-Rebellion-Revolution-ebook/dp/B006FDZ2KE
All you "original intent" and "Tea Party" folks ought to be super grateful that Washington is dead and not President, because he'd have the frickin US Army sticking its boot so far up your a*# you'd look like a bedroom slipper. That doesn't mean he'd be right.
All that doesn't mean that we ought not to read the 2nd Amendment as protecting individual rights of various kinds, but it does mean that all the endless appeals to the "Founders" (bad quotes and all) and all the "What-the-2nd-Amendment-means-to-me" posting, is fairly useless, aside from its therapeutic value.
I think there is actually a pretty good argument for a view of the 2nd Amendment more expansive than George Washington would've recognized, but I can't see many folks making it right now.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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DMD!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
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Gooooooo Philo!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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All you "original intent" and "Tea Party" folks ought to be super grateful that Washington is dead and not President, because he'd have the frickin US Army sticking its boot so far up your a*# you'd look like a bedroom slipper. That doesn't mean he'd be right.
All that doesn't mean that we ought not to read the 2nd Amendment as protecting individual rights of various kinds, but it does mean that all the endless appeals to the "Founders" (bad quotes and all) and all the "What-the-2nd-Amendment-means-to-me" posting, is fairly useless, aside from its therapeutic value.
I think there is actually a pretty good argument for a view of the 2nd Amendment more expansive than George Washington would've recognized, but I can't see many folks making it right now.
Uh, you are misguided. You are substituting one translation of one man for another. Always to suit your means. Nice try.
Maybe we should repeal the 2nd, huh? Outdated?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
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The beauty of the NRA's statement today is it will backfire on them. No pun intended.
you'd think they'd figure out how to appear smart enough to show they were willing and able to engage in a meaningful conversation. But todays statement clearly shows they are not. Guarding our schools with armed guards is beyond stupid. It shows a complete disconnect with those that are not NRA members (read, most of the country).
That disconnect comes as no surprise.
Further if you think that everyone should carry you also clearly show a disconnect with the country as a whole. Most want nothing to do with guns. It's a ridiculous "solution" to a major problem.
Stay disconnected I guess....
So the result I think will be is in another week or two there will be some other mass shooting (maybe the NRA will get lucky and it'll be a month or more) and the discussion or rhetoric will continue. I certainly don't wish that but let's be real. We all know there are people out there that watched this latest mass shooting and want to one-up that psycho. It's only going to get worse before it gets better.
I suspect those advocating for restrictions on guns will start to really organize and make a statement/difference. This latest event is galvanizing those of us that realize something has to change. One the other side the brain damaged NRA is advocating for turning our schools into reverse-prisons.
Y'all really think that'll turn the conversation into something constructive?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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I thought the NRA stance was perfect (no surprise?). In addition to adding mental health patient background checks to the current Fed-mandated background checks is logical, but adding a plain-clothes LEO officer to each school is equally logical.
I gotta deal with 9mm LEO Rangers at my local crag where kids are running around, why not schools?
But asshat liberals will knee-jerk this until they fall down. Or more kids are killed and we insist on the impossible, that all guns magically go away.
EDIT:
One the other side the brain damaged NRA is advocating for turning our schools into reverse-prisons.
Typical example of rhetorical scare tactics. "reverse prisons". Are Air-Marshalls cool by you? Bank guards?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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And it's really too bad Jon Stewarts last show was the night before the latest tragic event. I'm sure once the new year rolls around he'll make this discussion a top priority on his show. The NRA and their blatant examples of cognitive dissonance will be the subject matter for weeks to come...
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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of course you thought it was brilliant. Show's how disconnected you are. And yup, no surprise.
Problem is... what I'm pointing out... is your/their view - y'all are outnumbered and you're about to see that.
so you have two choices... stick to this ridiculous idea or find another that'll work for you. Because since you are outnumbered you're about to see how that plays out and you won't like it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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Doug, so will Park Rangers be disarmed now? Air Marshalls? Bank Guards?
We trust them with guns with kids on planes, banks, and in parks? Not in Schools?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:14am PT
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Your slippery slope is that eventually every public and private building will need an armed guard.
don't you see that?
so the schools are protect. so f*#king what? What about post offices? what about wall street? what about ___
these crazy f*#kers are not picking on schools or anything in particular. it's random.
don't you see that?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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The MSNBC pundits, along with a little help from Stewart and Colbert, would have a field day
Stewart and Colbert would never stoop that low.
hedge... I disagree with your angle entirely.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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Park Rangers be disarmed now? Air Marshalls? Bank Guards?
Banks have a sh#t ton of money and have ALWAYS been the target of criminals. And it's rare that a bank robber wants to walk into a bank and kill everyone because that's how they roll. They want the money and want to be gone. Air Marshalls are essentially guarding something similar.
you are comparing apples to oranges. don't you see that?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:19am PT
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Your slippery slope is that eventually every public and private building will need an armed guard.
don't you see that?
so the schools are protect. so f*#king what? What about post offices? what about wall street? what about ___
these crazy f*#kers are not picking on schools or anything in particular. it's random.
don't you see that?
Yep, I see the slope. But you assume it's bad to have an armed guard where people gather. I don't.
What would be Doug's solution to the school shooting dilemma?
EDIT:
Air Marshalls are essentially guarding something similar.
No, they are apples to apples. Suicide crazies.
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