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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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May 26, 2011 - 08:54am PT
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1. I never said, nor implied, that "nothing happened, and that sitting in the sun for two hours is worse". I have always maintained that what happened is really frickin bad, just not as bad as some may think. (E.g., one has written here that another quake may cause the Rx to fall over, etc...)
2. The Reactor Building (RB) has a basement, the Drywell does not. There is nothing under the drywell or the vessel pedestal, and if the fuel were to melt through the Rx bottom head, it would not go to the lower levels of the RB.
Perhaps these images will help you better understand:
And, here is what it looks like for real, when it is being constructed:
Now, what is seen in the pic above is the torus (ring) and the majority of the drywell vessel. Remember that the entire reactor vessel is contained within the drywell, as well as many systems and pumps. Both are connected by vent lines 6' in diameter. So, to understand the scale, the torus is a little over 100 in diameter, and the drywell is about 100 feet tall. Note that the void you see under the drywell is entirely filled with steel reinforced high-density concrete, as well as the entire drywell, vent lines, and torus being incased in same up to 8 feet thick. THEN, the entire reactor building is built around that, with floors and walls being generally between 4-6 feet thick, also of steel reinforced high-density concrete. Of course, the top of the refuel foor in not, and this proved to be a problem.
3. It's hard to explain things to people who don't care to understand the difference between a nuclear explosion (I.e., nuclear) and a hydrogen explosion (I.e., chemical).
See, this is the point... That many cannot see obvious error, and perpetuate that error through fundamental misunderstandings.
I remember seeing many thinking buiding these things over 2,000 foot deep shafts would be a good idea. Again, shows how many just don't understand the details of this. How would one manage or monitor it? That's like saying, 'hey, if it were at a 2,000 feet depth in the ocean, all would be good.' Sure, the dose rates would be substantially lower (non-existant, actually), but now we just created new problems, that are harder to contain. Out of site and out of mind is not good when it comes to this stuff.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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May 26, 2011 - 08:58am PT
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Some say when looking at the isotopes that have spread around the world that there had to be some kind of limited nuclear event.
Are you serious? Anyone with a brain who has watched TV or read a paper about this can see this is a major nuclear event.
Or, am I misunderstanding what you meant, because you don't really know enough about it to use the words correctly?
I think you are also ignoring or missing the fact that several nuclear experts from many different nations, including France and the US, are onsite helping TEPCO and Japan with this, so TEPCO is not the only source of information.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 26, 2011 - 09:41am PT
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The latest worry is a large typhoon headed toward Japan. Wouldn't you know that typhoon season has arrived a month earlier this year than normal?
Right now the forcasts have it going right up the coast of Japan as far as Tokyo and then pulling away toward the east. Even if that's all it does, the circumference is large enough for strong winds to be felt in Fukushima which will inevitably blow radiation around in a large circle beyond where it has reached so far.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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May 26, 2011 - 11:57am PT
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/26/world/asia/26japan.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all
A huge outcry is erupting in Fukushima over what parents say is a blatant government failure to protect their children from dangerous levels of radiation. The issue has prompted unusually direct confrontations in this conflict-averse society, and has quickly become a focal point for anger over Japan’s handling of the accident at the nearby Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, ravaged in the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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May 26, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
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Your pic is good I have seen this online. It would be a better illustration with the roof and walls missing and the crane sitting on top of the fuel pool or the Reactor vessel. It would look kind of like your second pic only with more debris.
To help you understand what I am saying, some sources state from the isotopes that have spread around the world, there has been more than just Hydrogen explosions.
An earthquake will not tip over the reactor vessel but one of the walls of Reactor 4 is in jeopardy of collapse. That collapse could further damage that fuel poll.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 26, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
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mnim,
nuclear event does not equal nuclear explosion.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
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TGT wrote
The report is that #1 has a TOTAL of cracks totaling the area of a 7cm (three inch) hole.
#3 has a total equaling a 10cm (4 in) hole.
No one has seen the holes and cracks. The size is calculated from pressure drop and leakage rates.
No major breach or melt thru from that data.
Fact is, the US NRC doesn't even consider the possibility that containment vessels could spring ANY holes. It's listed as a 0% liability and yet it seems to have happened in multiple cases at TEPCO.
And the stuff is leaking somewhere, somehow. Greenpeace is finding increasing radiation in Fish outside Japanese waters.
And the 80,000 people show no signs of returning within a few months like Adam predicted.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/05/26-7
It just keeps getting worse. And turns out that #1 started to melt down even before the Tsunami hit.
Congress votes today for more money for nukes,... Go figure and then GFYS if they have any say in it
Peace
Karl
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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May 26, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
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Karl...
Fact is, the US NRC doesn't even consider the possibility that containment vessels could spring ANY holes. It's listed as a 0% liability and yet it seems to have happened in multiple cases at TEPCO.
Now, c'mon, man... You should now this isn't true, as I even posted a pic of a rather large hole, although not through wall, and cited where people went to prison for this... It was the NRC that that had them brought up on criminal charges, and strengthened the program.
See here for just one such post (about half-way down):
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1436585&msg=1492190#msg1492190
Now, since you posted this as fact, please, show us where you get your "facts" from.
And the 80,000 people show no signs of returning within a few months like Adam predicted. You should know better than this too, unless you are purposefully being misleading here... I said:
So, to give a reasonable prediction of how I think things will unfold... I believe that after events are brought under control, and many surveys and samples of areas around the plant, within a few months people will be allowed to return with no restrictions on anything. The effected units will be multi-billion dollar paperweights, that require monitoring and maintainance, costing more money. While possible, I doubt units 5 or 6 will come back online like the other unit at TMI did, and is still operating to this day. But I may be wrong there, as they still can produce electricity, so there will be considerable reason to get those newer units back online... But I doubt politics and the public will allow it.
Worst reasonable case scenerio... All of the above, BUT delays in people returning to the surrounding areas due to the surveys and samples showing high levels of contamination, then having to clean up the contamination costing additional billions of dollars. Time frame? No idea... Depends on how much and how they have to decontaminate.
Anything outside the 'fence' (current Owner Controlled Property), from what I gather a mile from the units, being uninhabitable for a lifetime(s), or even decades? Slim to nil!
See for yourself, brutha:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1451327&msg=1457608#msg1457608
In fact, you have seen it, as you even quoted the part I made bold above towards the end of that page. Did you forget, or are your purposefully misrepresenting what I said?
I will fully admit that I didn't forsee it taking so many months to achieve 'cold shut-down', but that doesn't invalidate what I said. It's a big mess over there.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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May 26, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
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Oh, yea... From my quote above...
While possible, I doubt units 5 or 6 will come back online like the other unit at TMI did, and is still operating to this day. But I may be wrong there, as they still can produce electricity, so there will be considerable reason to get those newer units back online... But I doubt politics and the public will allow it.
Like I said, I don't think it'll happen, but there may be a push for it:Japan’s utilities could have trouble meeting summer electricity demand, unless nuclear reactors–including those unaffected by the earthquake and tsunami but were shut down for maintenance at the time–are restarted. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/20/energy-japan-power-companies-idUSL4E7GK10820110520
Note - This was in my previous update, but perhaps you missed it?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 26, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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It just keeps getting worse. And turns out that #1 started to melt down even before the Tsunami hit.
???? reliable source for that one?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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May 26, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
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It just keeps getting worse. And turns out that #1 started to melt down even before the Tsunami hit.
???? reliable source for that one?
Any source for that one, other than 'I read it on an internet forum for knitting while on a pogostick', would be swell.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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May 26, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
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Clicking that link, then clicking the link they have there under the same headline, takes me to an article that doesn't even hint at what the title says.
Please, copy and paste where you berlieve it states that, or, did you even read it?
Certainly you don't think that a site called "nukefree.org" would be biased, and post any misleading info, right?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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May 26, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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No, it is a link to nukfree.org, that makes that statement, then provides a link to an IAEA article that states NOTHING like that. IAn fact, I don't even see ANY reference to the United Nations there at all.
You didn't click it, did you?
Please, copy and paste the relevant text, and cite the source, as what you have provided thus far is just an unsubstantiated headline on an antinuke site.
From everything I have understood thus far, Unit 1 is believed to have suffered fuel damage earlier than was initially reported... It is understood that the some of the ECCS systems were not running for that unit just before the tsunami hit, and that lead to fuel damage at 5.5 hours after the quaqke/tsunami.
Remember, the tsunami hit just 20 minutes after the quake.
Since this doesn't agree with what you believe, you may wish to ignore this:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110517p2a00m0na008000c.html
Note - I got that article from the site that your link takes me to.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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May 26, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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@rrradam
from you post
So, to give a reasonable prediction of how I think things will unfold... I believe that after events are brought under control, and many surveys and samples of areas around the plant, within a few months people will be allowed to return with no restrictions on anything
So by under control you mean after a decade or so?
Not a few Months.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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May 26, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
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According to Tokyo Electric (TEPCO), radioactive iodine-131 in samples collected measured 200,000 becquerels per cubic centimeter, or five million times above normal. Cesium-137′s elevated level was 1.1 million times. No information on uranium and plutonium concentrations were given.
Moreover, thousands of tons of radioactive water are being dumped into the Pacific, likely to continue daily to make room for more runoff despite the great risk to sea life and humans
You do realize that seafood is a staple in Japan?
http://inteldaily.com/2011/04/increasing-fukushima-radiation-dangers/
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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May 26, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
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In what may be yet another setback, the operator of Japan's crippled Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Plant says radioactive water may now be leaking from a wastewater storage facility on site.
The Tokyo Electric Power Company, known as TEPCO, told reporters Thursday that nearly 60 tons of radioactive water may have spilled out, raising further concerns about the utility's ability to handle the worst nuclear crises since Chernobyl.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/leak-suspected-crippled-japanese-nuclear-plant/story?id=13691431
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