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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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But doing what you mentioned on account of me, now that is beyond stupid.
Isn't it more about what happened to Bruce Kay?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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My point is that Ed's sentiments are more because of Bruce Kay's banning in general.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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@EdwardT: After you said, "Forget about climategate", I commented that it looked like they hooked you pretty good.
EDIT:
But I think I see what you mean now. You're saying to forget about climategate as an example of an overblown media diversion to discredit climate scientists, this new diversion is going to be even bigger. I suppose time will tell.
"Forget Climategate. This global warming scandal is much bigger." is the title of the story.
It was followed by "thanks to those objective, unbiased journalists at Brietbart", which was meant facetiously. I hoped to convey "I'm not sure I believe these guys", but this story might be true. If so, it might carry some weight.
The overreaction to my post by certain posters was eye-opening.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Focusing on 'warming' or the lack there of is like saying the climate has always changed. Of course it has always changed, but not because of a single species.
Warming is not likely to take a more significant hold until the poles are melted, and they are melting. They are melting to the degree that things are warming and keeping somewhat of a temp equilibrium. The ice is limited however. Climate Change, rather than Global Warming, is happening quite noticeably, and not quite as easy to hide in the numbers.
but this story might be true. If so, it might carry some weight.
It won't be any truer than any of the other crap that has come out. Expect more crap now that the anti-science people have some control of both the People's Houses. I can only hope the rest of the world can see its way. BUT, I also know there are many companies and groups charging ahead in this country to make thing right, regardless of the crap we see in the media.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Who would think that heated science debate would result in so much hurt butt and cupped balls...?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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One effect of the low fossil fuel taxes in the USA is that the price at the pump fluctuates a lot, based on the price of crude.
Gasoline was about $3.50 last summer, and is now about $2 per gal in most of the country, a drop of 43%.
In England the price of petrol went from 1.35 £/liter to 1.06, a drop of 21% - only half as much.
When the price changes less, people's reaction and change in practices will also be more consistent.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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The U.S. average retail price per gallon of regular motor gasoline has fallen 28% from its 2014 peak of $3.70 per gallon on June 23, to $2.68 per gallon on December 8. However, this price decline may not have much effect on automobile travel, and in turn, gasoline consumption. Gasoline is a relatively inelastic product, meaning changes in prices have little influence on demand.
http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=19191
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Don't worry ...They'll have Fukushima up and running some time in the near future..
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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It wasn’t long ago that the Northwest Passage was sole domain of steel-hulled ice-breakers. We hope by making this traverse completely under human power in a row boat, without sail or motor, in a single season we will be able to demonstrate first-hand the profound affects climate change is having on our world
http://mainstreamlastfirst.com/
What are you getting at? This effort ended halfway along it's intended route, back in 2013. Are they making another attempt in 2015?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2015 - 07:49am PT
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I hoped to convey "I'm not sure I believe these guys", but this story might be true.
Um, you meant to convey a sentiment that the story might be true? In what way was this sentiment conveyed, because I totally missed it.
For example, if you said something like, "I found this story, but I'm not sure it's legit...", you would have gotten a completely different response. Instead, you post up nonsense, and expect to be greeted with flowers.
And man, me saying "they hooked you good" must have really upset your yacht.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2015 - 08:18am PT
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@Ed
Ed, it's clear that The Chief visits this thread only to stir up angst. As Dingus stated thousands of posts ago, it's a 1, 2, 3 dance of obstinance. Not once had he fessed up to any sort of contradiction or falsehood in what he's posted.
His last loud bout with Chiloe was really the sealer for me. Chiloe counted something like 18 posts in a short period where he attacked Chiloe on something that others had already demonstrated how his main point of attack was flawed. Then Chiloe laid out in detail how The Cheif's rabid attacks were off the mark.
Did The Chief back down in any way? Quite the opposite, he doubled down on his attacks. And to me that spoke volumes about his character, and about his motives.
At some point you must realize that you cannot reason with somebody who is unreasonable. And Ed, I watched as you tried to do just that--thinking that at some point, The Chief would become reasonable.
Don't let this one jackass break you here. Your posts to this thread, and others, hold more value than to just prove to The Chief the ways of science. Since the Chiloe debacle, I have vowed to myself to not respond to The Chief. From my POV, his posts show the worst of people and they severely detract from the net positive value of this forum. Please continue to contribute, both to threads on science and threads on climbing--SuperTaco is richer with your contributions.
But please, don't feed the trolls.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Such drama on "As the Taco turns". First, this threads most prolific poster gets his azz chopped in a meltdown of rambling inchoherent insults. Next , number 2 or theee most prolific poster ( who has already self erased here In a silly fit once) alludes to hitching his wagon up for the long journey away from not only here, but the community at large. What a loss, guffaw. None of the hardcore here are ever going to change there opinion. You, Ed, are stuck defending a cause whose exxagerated effects have not, nor will ever materialize. It is an ideology and defense of science that motivates your arguments . It's pretty silly to critique anothers understanding of a paper that go's to length presenting data and interpretation of agents of natural climate change, pointing to a single sentence near its end (consistent with anthropogenic climate change) paying the required homage to the government and enviro NGO's funding god when the whole paper was about data much more consistent with natural change. It's pretty silly to invoke the rote response of the precautionary principle, or even worse the "even if the science is wrong it would still be the right thing do to save the planet" when one comes up holding the short end of the stick. It belies the supporters of AGW arguments when indisputable proof shows latest generation nuclear and increased use of abundant Natural Gas is the quickest, safest, least disruptive path to vastly decreased CO2 emmission is always rejected wholesale. And what do you guys only and always offer up as your path to salvation; energy starvation and skyrocketing cost, carbon tax, and only promotion of inefficient, intermittment, polluting, and landscape scarring wind and solar. You guys have consistently cut out the very legs you stand on.
Not a one of you are accomplishing a damn thing here. Not a one of you cannot be replaced. The entire argument here is circular with no common agreement accepted. KMAN erase this thread.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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KMAN erase this thread.
Dude's kept an even keel so far, I don't think he's bailing at your command.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Man, since I left this thread, I've checked in a few times now and then, but rarely read more than a few posts. It doesn't change a bit. There has been no progress. None at all. The same posters go at it day after day. Like a 14 year old boy who just discovered internet porn, you can't stay away.
This forum can be a huge waste of time if you let it get to you. I click on the main posters and can see that they get up in the morning, make a post, and continue making posts on an hourly basis until bedtime.
Chief, you admitted that this is a BS laden politically biased thread straight up. The first time I've agreed with you in a long time.
I don't hang out here as often as I did. Not daily. The Mind thread has been full of top notch thinking, and as much as I would like to contribute, I just don't have the TIME. I can't keep up. That thread takes a while to just keep up, much less make an intelligent post.
We should all unplug and go enjoy the sunshine more. These threads aren't worth so much of our time. Especially this one, which reads like Fox News vs. CSNBC.
Nobody changes their minds. You can pluck out a post from two years ago, plop it down again, and nobody would even notice.
We have only so much time in our lives. Spending it sitting in front of a computer is just sad.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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in response to rick, I don't recall having much of a discussion on alternatives, and him representing what I think are viable technological solutions is basically a straw man, he's never engaged me in that discussion and he has only made a set of assumptions based on his presumed stereotype of my views.
rick has a strange view, he doesn't want things to change (he's a conservative in that sense) so he will question the basis that is compelling change: that anthropogenic climate change is happening. The strangeness comes in when he proclaims that everything is going to be alright anyway, that our technology will save us, and we won't have to spend any more for it.
But altering our energy production will cause costs across the board to go up. The sources available to us are getting more expensive. Even coal, unless we abandon all environmental and safety issues, and just decide that the huge increase in CO2 emission isn't an issue. Fortunately people are more sane than that.
Increased energy costs will disrupt the market, rick doesn't like that because he has a lot at stake in the current market, as do a lot of people. But disrupting the market is the only way to bring on the alternate technologies. Looking at the very long term, the fossil fuel supplies will be combusted to exhaustion and energy will have to be produced in a different way. While it seems that this won't happen in a long time, it's actually not that far away, a century or so.
responding to Base, while I might occasionally fall into a reactive mode, I do try to post new work to the thread regularly, not just churn up the old stuff. One of the disheartening thing about doing that is the new stuff often gets buried in the overwhelming noise of people posting every 15 minutes. This is a strategy which dilutes more thoughtful posts in a sea of noise and prevents them from being seriously discussed.
However, I refer to those posts myself after a while and they provide material for response even though they get buried. They can be unburied later...
...and most of the posts are not attempts to change The Chief's mind, or even educate him. I view him as a character in a very old book Dialogo sopra i due massimi sistemi del mondo associated with the character Simplicio. While he will take great umbrage at this, it would be in line with his lack of familiarity with intellectual debate. Whether or not he thinks he wears those shoes, it is the role I've cast him as in my responses.
Oddly, the author of that ancient work suffered the very thing The Chief predicts in his loud proclamations of his view of the political consequences of being a climate scientist.
I'm off to enjoy the moonshine, more on that later.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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I view him as a character in a very old book "Dialogo sopra i due massimi sistemi del mondo" associated with the character Simplicio. ... Whether or not he thinks he wears those shoes, it is the role I've cast him as in my responses.
Works for me, although I will now have to look up the character Simplicio to more fully understand.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Works for me, although I will now have to look up the character Simplicio to more fully understand.
^An excellent illustration of this thread's dominant theme.^
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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EddyT-
Me too. I come to learn and stretch my mind/intel.
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