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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 20, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
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thanks Werner, I almost said something to that effect myself....
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 20, 2011 - 10:59pm PT
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Perhaps Middendorf (deuce4) does not remember.
Let's turn back one page to page 97 of his book:
For grim aid, "Pointed Chouinards" are required (a standard Chouinard hook with the end filed into a sharp 45-degree, triangular point)l. These are used in enhanced hook placements, where a shallow 1/4-inch hole has been drilled in a horizontal or sloping shelf, allowing the hook to "catch."
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
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I have no idea what you guys used back then. i only got into serious hooking about 10 years ago. The talon hooks seem realy good for thin stuff. Did you have anything that good BINTD?
Yes, Middendorf included a picture of a the BD talon on p. 96 along with a variety of other hooks, some very beefy and not at all thin.
On the next page, he points out "For an extreme aide route, the hook rack may consiste of ten different hooks in a variety of sizes and shapes."
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
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your point....?
Some climbers drilled holes on the back of sloping flakes, and the only way to hook these on subsequent ascents was to have pointed Chouinards (filed down to a point) on the rack. But it wasn't a honoured technique, and considered poor style.
There was a lot of hub-bub when it was discovered that the Hook or Book on the Sea of Dreams consisted mostly of drilled hook placements (late 80's?), because the FA did not enhance all the placements (but they might have enhanced some, from what I've heard).
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:16pm PT
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So what.
A small divot made to keep a hook from skating off an edge was/is standard practice.
It may be right or wrong according to the practitioner or you the internet wannabe wanker.
The point is Grossman is standing there making his opinions right or wrong while you granite tool are hiding behind a curtain throwing sh'it at him and Mimi.
You're on the same level as the sh'itters assh'ole.
What a fuking pussy .....
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
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the term was "granite flake" not edges.
Yes, just like the "granite flakes" enhanced or not on WOS.
You ever hooked? Ya idiot granite numbskull sh'it talker.
I've done enough hooking to understand firsthand that placing a sharp steel hook on the rock and weighting it with bodyweight (no slight tapping) can often "micro-enhance" the rock even if you don't want it to.
The softer or more crumbly the rock, the greater the damage.
If you don't believe me, take along a magnifying class and look at your placements before and after weighting them. You won't always see anything, but you'll see something often enough. The changes are very small, but those are the kinds of changes that Richard and Mark are being pilloried for.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
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Tons of stuff happens on zillions of routs, aid and free. I did a climb last year in NH by one of the walk on water NE names (strand even used this guy as an example of pure ethics when ranting at me one day :) Anyways the last pitch goes free at 10a thanks to an incredibly heavy hand with the hammer and god only knows what else.. Brought one of the members of team tough up that climb this summer and all he could do was shake his head and say " that sure as heck ain't no Michalangelo...
But heck, there is no way I would have ever free climbed that pitch without the famous dudes heavy hammer so it's all good.. you would think at his age though that he would know enough to rub some dirt into the fresh scars?
My point is that almost everyone has situational ethics when the going gets hairy. some obviously go much farther than others but we all break our own rules to some extent when we get scared... exceptionally silly rules they are BTW ;)
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
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Graniteclimber- Per Werner's frustration, I think it is about time for my Samoan Attorney/Bouncer to get involved. Anticipate a call anytime, most likely when you are not expecting it.
Best of luck.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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Granite tool says: "I've done enough hooking ..."
Now how the fuk are we supposed to believe any of this bullsh'it?
We don't know who you are. Therefore you're a nobody talking sh'it.
You see idiot?
Of course you don't, since you're a pussy anonymous wanker.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
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Werner Braun:
"A small divot made to keep a hook from skating off an edge was/is standard practice."
Thank you, Werner Braun!
I love you man! I knew you'd come through with the truth.
See that everyone? Enhancing the rock for hooks IS and WAS STANDARD PRACTICE!
If anyone is an expert on what is done in Yosemite, it is Werner Braun.
I'm glad this is finally settled!
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
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So what. Oh yeah I'm a real expert, (said in a total sarcastic tone).
You don't know sh'it granite tool.
If I or Deucy did a whole or half a pitch of this divot enhancement Grossman would surely get on my ass.
That's OK because Steve is coming up to me as a real person unlike you granite sh'it talking wanker.
I'd respect Steve and definitely nothing you say granite wanker.
Various people did it on a placement here or there where it was merited although very rare.
Steve wouldn't ever do it I'd bet.
That's OK too.
But he'd surely wouldn't chop your pitch or sh'it on anyone's rope .....
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dipper
climber
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Aug 20, 2011 - 11:59pm PT
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Guido is on to something there...
For the rest,
1) Do something meaningful with your time. Teach someone to read, to love, to empathize.
or
2) Keep reading this until it makes sense.
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Leo elit quis non ornare vivamus nam odio purus. Leo lectus sed ut iaculis volutpat. In in tellus. Nulla lacus proin ante nesciunt scelerisque. Facilisis velit habitasse tincidunt volutpat blandit. Nulla in suspendisse lectus potenti dolor sed quis mi. Arcu vulputate posuere eu tincidunt sit. Tristique placerat adipiscing dictum dignissim et. Magna sit felis. Eget porta quaerat. Viverra consectetuer amet. Id id suscipit praesent wisi pede ligula tortor porta. Quis duis sed. Aliquam mattis donec sed lectus quam. Nam convallis enim posuere sit viverra at convallis nunc. Nec augue mi mauris volutpat arcu. Duis id alias. Orci tenetur nec et dui aliquam. Curae metus felis. Mi nulla erat nibh accumsan vitae ipsa inceptos in aenean dui leo. Risus nostrud consectetuer. Malesuada scelerisque donec integer urna quis quis ultricies non ullamcorper sed dolor vel ornare porttitor hendrerit aptent lacus. Sit commodo a quis varius tortor diam quis at erat sed auctor nec purus etiam. Phasellus consectetuer tincidunt orci non mi. Id lacus nunc. Natoque justo nibh venenatis id pulvinar. Volutpat et maecenas sociis nec dis tempus sit porta libero amet euismod. Diam tempor hymenaeos. Sed hac sit. Arcu vitae nulla. Non mi curabitur. Felis pede pellentesque. Malesuada aenean eget morbi tincidunt non sagittis mauris sapien. Arcu risus dui. Nec integer eros. Libero condimentum morbi ut proin mauris. Massa praesent commodo. Vestibulum enim suspendisse. Orci ullamcorper scelerisque. Gravida tempor pede tempus quibusdam est ut viverra a morbi est mi. Venenatis ut pede. Amet sit magna sit at ultricies ante nec netus. Mi dignissim diam. Donec vitae at sit wisi in sociis arcu donec c#m tellus dolor. Ut mi vestibulum aliquam iaculis quam.
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Felis consectetuer duis. Vivamus nunc aliquet. Ad nibh at leo cras tempor. Et nec ullamco adipiscing duis facilisi malesuada dui in. Purus massa turpis amet tempus velit enim torquent sed. Iaculis suspendisse in. Malesuada massa lacinia. Mi nulla lorem. Habitasse erat facilisi arcu sem ante sint at non senectus lorem vitae per magna ipsum. Posuere ante eget condimentum vel erat.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 21, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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I think the enhanced drilled hook divot might have been more common in the Bridwell era (hence the need for pointy Chouinards), but it was highly frowned upon in the mid-80's era. The ethic was pretty plain and simple: if you had to use a drill, put in a good machine rivet. By then, Z-macs and dowels were also considered highly dubious as first ascent tools.
We didn't see much of Steve in those days, but Walt was also quite outspoken on the preferred methods. He kept me in line a few times...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 21, 2011 - 12:26am PT
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My credibility and record have never been an issue.
Uhh... no... false. You don't get to so neatly "rise above."
Your record and credibility are EXACTLY what is at issue in your utter refusal to answer a single, simple, pointed question repeated over many years. And unlike your troll questions, THIS question is material to the issue of your record and credibility to act as the high priest of purity you CLAIM is your position beyond reproach.
The question:
Have you EVER used the pick of your hammer to remove some flaky crud from a copperhead seam, "scraped" the top of a flake with your pick or any other implement, or in ANY other way used steel to remove even a BIT of "offending" material from a placement before making that placement?
Again, if you say "no," the whole climbing community will cry BS. And if you (honestly, if that's possible) admit that you have, then you cry BS on yourself and all your endless crap about us doing even LESS than you have over the years.
So, quit trolling and answer the simple question. YOUR record and credibility ARE in question here, particularly as you have over the last two years CLEARLY revealed yourself as nothing but a loud-mouthed poseur regard YOUR utter abortion of a SA non-attempt on WoS.
n'-kay yourself, goofball.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 21, 2011 - 12:37am PT
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Frankly, I think the fairer question should be more, "have you ever systematically and repeatedly, in order to climb a first ascent, used the hammer and chisel to modify the natural placements on the rock?"
But Steve should honestly answer your question as posed as well.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 21, 2011 - 12:39am PT
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but it was highly frowned upon in the mid-80's era
Okay, it's hard, but let's get the "eras" straight, shall we.
"Mid-80s..." uh, let's see... the Sea was put up BEFORE WoS, and...
1982, which would be EARLY-80s... is the FA of Wos.
But, then, there's ZM, which was by any account LATE-80s/early-90s era, and which was put up with the SAME tactics as the Sea, tactics which you have admitted included "enhancing" at a whole different level beyond the purity of what we were doing on WoS.
Sorry, Deuce, but you continue to try to float the historical revisionism that there was this neat little window of "purity" in which, apparently ONLY the "pure" were being, well, pure. And, amazingly, in your last passage, I find you condemning the BIRD! After all, it was HIS tactics that were "frowned on," according to you. And HIS tactics entirely bracketed the WoS FA, which did NONE of his tactics, by your own model even more pure than the Bird.
Hmm... I'm SO confused! I'm especially confused since in our "discussions" with (haha... our being yelled at by) many notable people in the Valley during the FA, the SEA was touted as THE ROUTE that set THE STANDARD for how routes should be done. We were told again and again: Do the Sea, and then we'll take you seriously. (Oh the hubris!) And, ironically, HAD we done an even earlier ascent of the Sea than we did, we would have put up a WORSE route than we did on WoS.
The "window of purity" you claim was not mainstream, if it existed at all. And how DARE you and a few others claim that YOUR narrow-minded idea of the "high bar" IS the "high bar" that should constrain ALL new routes? What ridiculous hubris! And why don't you just flat-out come clean with the FACT that you can't single WoS out for special condemnation? Time to come clean and be crystal clear that you are also condemning the Bird and HIS various partners.
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pc
climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 12:43am PT
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You guys are like a falling cat with buttered toast strapped to its back. Perpetually spinning...
You're both close to Seattle right? Why not meet up at Angelo's in bellevue and chat it through over a bottle or two of wine. If that does'nt work then it's thrown clams at 10 paces.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 21, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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ZM was first done in 1981. Walt and I climbed it in Winter in 1985 or so. I don't recall talking about any enhancements. I do recall getting lost on one of the early pitches, and doing a terrifying hooking variation with a bad ledge fall potential--but I certainly didn't enhance any placements.
edit--maybe you are talking about the time I smacked a thin exfoliating flake which broke off and made it hookable--I recall admitting my bad on a Supertopo post some time back, but I don't recall that being on Zenyatta, which other than the above incident went pretty smooth. In any case, I'm not defending my actions in that case--stuff like that was considered bad juju.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 21, 2011 - 12:59am PT
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Your latest question, Deuce, is also an interesting one, but it sort of misses the point. The POINT is ANY FA team's willingness to do that AT ALL. If you are EVER willing to do it, then everything collapses into a matter of scale.
The "systematic" aspect of it is impossible to define. WE were willing to on occasion "level an edge," which, as I have carefully explained, meant knocking an offending crystal off, leaving the SAME edge that existed before and putting NO more rock under the hook (hence my denial that this is an "enhancement," as it makes the placement no more secure). NO "dimples," regardless of SG's continued insistence on demonstrating his utter lack of commitment to the truth by using that term.
The fact that we were WILLING to do this makes it no more "systematic," because we did it about a dozen times or so, than somebody that does it five times or so, or once. The WILLINGNESS to do it AT ALL is what's at issue here.
SG continually implies that he's NEVER done anything like this, but we ALL know he has, because ALL of us that have done aid climbing have done it.
And the idea that this "tactic" somehow sullies subsequent ascents is completely ridiculous. As I've said before, ALL aid ascents DO THIS! ALL aid ascents (that are not "clean") move rock around to make subsequent placements. If Jim is on the ball about any aspect of calling this discussion a tempest in a thimble, THIS aspect of the discussion really is.
And the real "context" of the discussion, going back to your earlier post is NOT the "enhancements." The REAL context is the flat-out lies told about us and about the route for decades, all of which have now been debunked. Let's recap the ACTUAL context of the past three decades, shall we?
A bolt ladder
A thousand bolts to Horse Chute
A rivet ladder
An overdrilled PoS
Almost every placement is a bolt or rivet
The drill was used on almost every placement
My grandma could do that PoS in an afternoon
Try standing on a hook
The Mad Bolters
The Butchers
Inexperienced kids that had no clue how to put up a decent route
THESE were the strident claims made by our critics over decades, and THESE claims founded the defamation campaign about us and the route.
It's ridiculously disingenuous of you, Deuce, to take THOSE decades of lies, which are now KNOWN to be lies, pitch all THAT CONTEXT behind us as though none of THAT ever really mattered, and take a VERY RECENT and utterly red-herring issue and magnify that as if IT was "the context."
Like your fabled window of purity somewhere in the mid-80s, THIS revision of history is a distorted fabrication that magnifies what matters to YOU without a basis in mainstream, objective fact.
99% of ALL that was said about us and WoS is now known to have been lies. YOU focus on the 1% of the totality that could POSSIBLY be considered a critique not based on a lie, magnify that recent issue as being THE issue, and thereby give a PASS to the liars over the decades that never even IMAGINED the issue you are magnifying. THEY were making entirely different claims, THOSE claims are the context, and those claims were lies. And anybody could see that those claims were lies by simply walking up to the base of the route and looking up.
So, let's keep our eyes on the facts! That is ALL we have EVER fought for over the years.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Aug 21, 2011 - 01:00am PT
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doos-
don't try to confuse ricardo with the facts bro, he's gawt gawd on hiz side and he'z right as rain, as is always the way.
Your latest question, Deuce, is also an interesting one, but it sort of misses the point. The POINT is ANY FA team's willingness to do that AT ALL. If you are EVER willing to do it, then everything collapses into a matter of scale.
and your question seems to imply that scraping away rotten rock with a utensil of any sort is equal to using a sharp piece of steel on solid rick and not considering it drilling or chipping.
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