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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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The only thing we should take away from this is that the Sovereign Citizen movement characters like Cliven Bundy, are a menace. They are considered the #1 domestic terror threat, or at least the militia movement is.
Remember Tim McVeigh? He wasn't in a militia, but he was damn sure indoctrinated into it.
Living in the OKC area, I have no love for these jerks.
The only real thing, and it got obscured by this whole takeover of the Refuge, was those ranchers who got the mandatory minimum for burning a little scrubland that probably needed burning anyway.
Remember the 90's? Fight crime? Judges letting bad guys go with a slap on the wrist, so Congress instituted Mandatory Minimums. If we do anything, we need to get rid of mandatory minimums. There are people doing very long federal prison sentences (remember no parole in the federal system), for small, non-violent, offences.
The ranchers, the Hammonds, should be pardoned soon, but now that will be ten times more difficult to do. It would be funny to be released by Obama, who those guys hate.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Being free is a dirty business. I fully recognize that. But I feel it's a better Choice than our current state or path. We have lots of freedom here, make no mistake but we aren't protecting it well and I want more.
Our current path IS the dirty business you admit to.
It's always the fight between what one person considers personal freedom and what the effects of that personal freedom do to infringe on the freedom of others in a finite world.
It's called civilization.
The rancher claiming public land as his own is but one example. A miner being 'free' to pollute a salmon river is no freedom for those who live off salmon.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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I'm not clear about who you consider to be the "our" in your statement. But I can tell you who it doesn't encompass, and it's a majority of citizens and its roughly 100% of elected officials.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Advocates of freedom aren't welcome here?
Certainly knott if they don't tout the party line. Whoever said "Inside every liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out" surely knows his French history.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Republican and Democrat party lines are both focused on increasing the power and control of government.
If we continue to allow this concentration of power within our government, the end result is reduced freedom. Dispersed power and governance does more to foster individual liberty and economic freedom and growth. That is historical truth, not hypothesis.
Concentrations of power set up the kinds of squeeze jobs that people like the Hammonds suffer under. And many others.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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The only thing we should take away from this is that the Sovereign Citizen movement characters like Cliven Bundy, are a menace. They are considered the #1 domestic terror threat, or at least the militia movement is
What would you propose be done about this #1 domestic terror threat?
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Escopeta. I am relieved to discover that you know everything and there is no need to provide a basis for any opinion so long as it is presented as fact.
Dispersed power and governance does more to foster individual liberty and economic freedom and growth. That is historical truth, not hypothesis.
Historical truth is a pretty comic concept.
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overwatch
climber
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What would you propose be done about this #1 domestic terror threat?
I don't know...double or even triple down posting?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Feb 3, 2016 - 09:20am PT
I'm not clear about who you consider to be the "our" in your statement. But I can tell you who it doesn't encompass, and it's a majority of citizens and its roughly 100% of elected officials.
Don't compartmentalize. That's just a facile blame game.
It encompasses all of us, including the elected officials. We elected them, sometime for many terms despite them not living up to their promises to us and their failure to govern responsibly.
As citizens, we get the elected officials we chose and deserve. We have a system of laws we passed through our elected officials that apply to everyone. It is when we don't insist on accountability and a sense for the common good that the system fails.
That's why it's dirty. I'm not sure what blissful system you are proposing that doesn't encompass that fact. Perhaps you can articulate. Unchecked freedom for everyone doesn't sound like an answer.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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What would you propose be done about this #1 domestic terror threat?
I think we really are going to see trouble coming in the upcoming months, if our country cannot get a handle on this.
It's one thing to protest, to work within the system for change, and another entirely for people to engage is the shenanigans the Bundy Buddies are up to.
The people who live in the region of Malheur have been very explicit about the problems it is incurring for them - they don't feel safe in their own county because strangers armed with weapons and crazy doctrine are camping out and causing mayhem. And yet - they just keep making more crazy.
Really - for god's sake - do we want a civil war? Because that is where this is HEADING. Hard to imagine? I would hope so, but when you have these "militia" folks raring for action, promoting insane talk that those too lazy/stupid to research and analyze rationally, and nutters who believe the bullshit they're being fed on agenda-based media sources - how does it END?
Supposing one of the whackadoodles who's encamped in that area hears "the word of God" telling him he must shoot the enemy, who arrives in the garb of LEO. NOW what? Does law enforcement back off and keep asking politely that the shooter disarm and surrender? When you know damned well they won't? Even if they demobilize with non-lethal tactics and take the shooter into custody, there are 10 to 100 "civilians" now sure it's a conspiracy and hearing themselves "called."
It started with hate and fear, stemming from the 911 attacks.
The US government is wondering how to staunch the radicalization of ISIS wannabes - they had better start doing the same on these homegrown based fundamentalist groups.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Historical truth is a pretty comic concept.
That's a third grader's, admittedly with a good vocabulary, idea of a refutation.
In my junior high debate club you would have bern laughed at, sir, to put it politely.
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dirtbag
climber
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Yep, Finicum's death has energized the kooks. I expect an escalation.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Remember folks, ISIS is just responding to the word of God too. They just call him Allah.
If the people of Burns don't want outsiders there, it is time for ALL of them to stand up against them. Additionally, since these people are coming from out of state to stand and protest in Burns (peacefully, of course), then anyone opposed to their protest should travel in as well and set up a peaceful counter-protest as well.
The problem with good, law abiding citizens is that they are apathetic in their approach to dealing with these situations, simply allowing/assuming that someone else will put people in their place with whom they disagree. Bravo to those who were brave enough to go to Malhuer and protest the occupation. Support your 1st amendment and let your voice be know, no matter WHICH side of the issue you stand upon.
And while you're at it, don't forget to support the 2nd and all the rest of the Constitution and its amendments.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Escopeta posted There are a lot of people in the U.S. that have been conditioned to ask for permission before they are allowed to do even the most basic things. Essentially they are forced to justify all the ways they might want to act, or do, or not do.
I prefer the approach that affords people to live their lives how they see fit as long as they respect the equal rights of others.
You could not illustrate the problem more clearly and more confusingly at the same time. Who are they asking permission from? And what are "the most basic things?"
Here's a great example: My coworker has a neighbor. The neighbor decided to do some of the most basic things which included cutting down some mature trees and then taking a backhoe and digging along his property line. He was not conditioned to ask permission so he exercised his rights as a Freedom Loving American. Unfortunately, the trees he cut down weren't on his property as he thought, they were on my coworker's property. What has ensued is a several months long property dispute. 2 surveys (one from each party) have agreed that the property line is where my coworker says it is. They have had to get injunctions issues against the guy which he has repeatedly ignored. The police won't do anything because they don't enforce property rights. So anytime the neighbor wants to fire up his backhoe he can basically do so and all my coworker can do is file for yet ANOTHER emergency hearing to get the judge to tell him to stop.
No intrusive government here, no heavy hand of the law, just a guy who wasn't conditioned to ask permission for things and some property owners who are constantly struggling to not simply shoot the guy off of his backhoe.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Your coworker needs to sue for damages. That's how civil cases work. Then garnish his income.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Instead of laws telling us all the things we can't do (so many that there is no way to count them all) how about we pass laws protecting what we can do? In the absence of that, .gov expands to fill the void. This thread has gotten far more interesting.
You have it backwards. Laws telling things we cannot do arise from the theory that, generally, the status quo of government is non-intervention. This concept is embodied in our Bill of Rights. Freedom of speech, the press and peaceful assembly, from unreasonable searches and seizures, from forced quartering of soldiers and (the redneck favorite) the right to bear arms for purposes of maintaining "a well regulated militia" (though 2nd Amendment apologist routinely ignore that important preface).
Laws are intended to provide boundries so we can govern our conduct. You cross a known line established by a law and you know you've transgressed it. In fact, the literal translation of Crime and Punishment is "transgression and punishment". The Founding Fathers recognized the problem with creating laws that say what you can do. Failure to designate every specific right might be construed as an absence of that right. They knew that there would be some ambiguity but, where there is, it's the purpose of the judiciary to sort out what our laws actually mean.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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jonnyrig posted Your coworker needs to sue for damages. That's how civil cases work. Then garnish his income.
You'd think it was that easy. But it's not. And the lawyers have cost thousands upon thousands of dollars in the meantime.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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some interesting stuff here.
based upon what I have read (and I read some of the court case on the Hammonds), the worst thing they got hit with was the minimum sentence law that has already been mentioned. other than that I don't think they were squeezed by over regulation. but obviously, each person has a different perspective. I wasn't trying to raise cows out in that area, but I have gone out there hiking, biking and camping. I have even been known to visit a wildlife refuge on occasion. that certainly provides me with a different perspective and a different view of rights and freedom.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Seriously, we talking about a domestic cat or something more exotic... like a Fossa?
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Hawkeye,
Reading the court documents of the Hammond case gives you insight into the final act of a very long play. Without the context of all the various acts that came before it doesn't outline the history or coercion, and heavy handed tactics that led to the final situation.
Every person has their limit. Their final straw. And that final straw doesn't necessarily have to be the best example of what led to that point, it's just the last straw.
As HL Menken said (paraphrased) "every man at times decides to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats".
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