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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:26am PT
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Do you think that folks might begin to look at their grass lawns and begin to think, "Gosh, I could have used that space to plant some veggies..."
OT for this climate discussion, but Detroit provides a fascinating example of what might happen in a "post-American city." Someone who's written about this took me on a tour recently of neighborhoods where more than half the houses are abondoned, some torn down and turned into vegetable gardens by their remaining neighbors. Trees are growing in some hollowed-out highrise buildings downtown.
The transformation of the residential neighborhoods is more dramatic. On so many streets in so many neighborhoods, you see a house, a little shabby but well built and beautiful. Then another house. Then a few houses are missing, so thoroughly missing that no trace of foundation remains. Grass grows lushly, as though nothing had ever disturbed the pastoral verdure. Then there's a house that's charred and shattered, then a beautiful house, with gables and dormers and a porch, the kind of house a lot of Americans fantasize about owning. Then more green. This irregular pattern occurs mile after mile, through much of Detroit. You could be traveling down Wabash Street on the west side of town or Pennsylvania or Fairview on the east side of town or around just about any part of the State Fair neighborhood on the city's northern border. Between the half-erased neighborhoods are ruined factories, boarded-up warehouses, rows of storefronts bearing the traces of failed enterprise, and occasional solid blocks of new town houses that look as though they had been dropped in by helicopter. In the bereft zones, solitary figures wander slowly, as though in no hurry to get from one abandoned zone to the next. Some areas have been stripped entirely, and a weedy version of nature is returning.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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If 'They' were serious rather than scam artists all new housing
for the last 20 years would have mandated that the roofs be built
to accept solar panels and point south for max sun exposure.
By their deeds you will know them.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:38am PT
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CNN the stupidest American news media just said about the Northeast blizzard.
"New England faced an old enemy Tuesday: Mother Nature."
Saying mother Nature is an enemy shows how stupid and irresponsible these media fools are.
No wonder America has become stupid listening to these nutcases babbling endlessly .......
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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Tell you what Kelly. Why don't you gather up your family, friends, and fellow frightened utopians and seperate yourselves from the society you so loathe. There is a little chain of north pacific islands called the Aleutians that have high rocky shores impervious to your expected sea level rise. They are far enough north that a 4.5c rise in temps could only help their livability. For a nominal fee you could probably purchsse an island like Adak (abandoned naval installation and failed fishing town in progress) and live the "sustainable" lifestyle unmolested by the unwashed masses and in complete harmony with nature and your fellow inhabitants.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 09:41am PT
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DISCLAIMER: I am obviously shooting from the hip with my zanny proposed approaches to the problem. Folks keep asking "What are we going to do?" It's my opinion that the actions must be radical, our current way of life isn't sustainable. Look around at just about every living system to see.
So I'm throwing out some radical ideas, without having done the research to see what will actually stick if implemented. Perhaps it will spark a discussion.
One thing I believe deeply, however, is that we gotta start living as if we're one large dysfunctional family. We gotta take care of our weird uncle, even if he has a different view of the world.
Every war is a civil war.
 Inca Inca (an old reggae band)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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Tell you what Kelly. Why don't you gather up your family, friends, and fellow frightened utopians and seperate yourselves from the society you so loathe.
You got me wrong rick; I don't loathe society. Quite the opposite in fact. I'm trying to figure out a system that will work, because our current one doesn't seem to be doing the trick.
Off the climate change topic, but do you know how much outstanding debt there is in the world? Tell me, is this capitalism a system that's working??
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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I don't loathe society. And I'm not talking Utopia.
I'm trying to figure out a system that will work, because our current one obviously doesn't.
See .... this is intelligent
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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Deep down I don't think humanity can control itself, at all.
When humanity on the whole can't control itself anymore it will be forced to by mother nature.
It's already in effect and has been since the beginning.
Humanity does not have full free independence to do as it wishes.
It still ultimately is under the jurisdiction of the higher superior power even though many so foolishly want to deny.
Humanity can not independently fully destroy itself without the higher superior powers OK.
They will not give you that power.
You are too stupid ......
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Jan 27, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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Back a few pages on this fast-moving thread nuclear power popped up. Chiloe correctly identified economics and underwriting insurance as a huge stumbling block as is public perception particularly after the serious problems in Japan.
But, "nuclear power" encompasses many options. If you want to learn about the most promising (by far) google up LFTR - Liquid fluoride thorium reactor
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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They will not give you that power.
I loved Sagan's book Making Contact for the way he presents the sentient beings in the contact, and their view of the cosmos.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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Making Contact is also interesting in that the problem presented in the book was one that took world cooperation to solve.
In the very end, I suppose this is true:
The very systems that gave rise to our species will deal it's death as well.
In the short term, the question becomes whether or not we can figure out the puzzle.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 27, 2015 - 10:51am PT
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Yes Bolte , you're on a viable track.
Kelly, yes capitalism has its problems: corruption and collusion for personal gain through the greed of politicians/special interests/industry. Yet look at Mao's China, the former USSR, Soviet dominated eastern Europe, Cambodia under the Kmer Rouge, Venezuela, Cuba, and progressive socialism like Greece, Spain. They all failed and their citizens and environments suffered exponentially worse than modern capitalist countries. Ultimately communes, be it Jonestown or China, are controlled by a select few men whose vision is not compatible with the welfare of the people. Do you really want to put your trust on individuals like Obama, Reed,.Pelosi?
Throughout the ages humanity has been afflicted by superstition and visions of calamity that can only be averted by sacrifice. The Mayans ripping out beating hearts to appease the sun god enough to continue to rise, dark age Europeans burned hundreds of thousands of witches at the stake to atone for the evil that God responded to by afflicting cold, hunger and plague upon the people, and now CAGW proposes to save humanity from itself by sacrificing our industrial society and a majority of the unwashed masses.
Relax Kelly, anthro climate change calamity is just the latest iteration of age old superstitions. Our climate scientists no more all knowing than the preists of the past. Raise your family, enjoy your grandkids. Nature and the future will take care of itself with or without us.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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Nature and the future will take care of itself with or without us.
Nature will force you to deal with it.
There's no escape for you.
If you fail to deal with it in this lifetime you will be forced to continue to suffer or rectify your mistakes in your next lifetime.
There's no escape.
I MUST fix the problem.
You can't hand it off to someone else or say Nature will do it.
Mother nature will not let you.
You will be forced to deal with it.
Yes ....YOU
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 27, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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So, tangible, achievable solutions....
cap and trade is a bullshit paperwork scheme, as are carbon credits leveraging existing forests. I can't believe people tout that sh#t as a tangible, achievable solution. . . .
The solution involves replacing the energy source, not choking off the economies that will fund those energy replacements.
Stop the carbon cap shams. They are ludicrous.
I must respectfully disagree, DMT. The very reason I support cap and trade is to allow a rational replacement of energy sources. Anything else leads to the sorts of inane governmental policy that alleges that bullet trains in California reduce pollution, or require us to make immediate and fabulously expensive and disruptive switches to the green energy source du jour, etc. etc.
Cap and trade allows people to make a choice. When it becomes more expensive for them to continue with a "warmer" technology, people have an incentive to switch. When the "warmer" technology is less expensive, they pay the price of retaining it. Quite simply, no one government body currently has sufficient knowledge to determine a single most effective course of action for everyone, taking into account the individual costs and benefits, and no one source can acquire the required information as cheaply as letting market forces do the allocation.
Does cap and trade increase the cost of commodities? Yes, to those who currently don't pay the externalities associated with those commodities. It reduces the cost - by reducing the externalities - to those who bear the cost of the externalities without using the commodities.
Do I trust government to set the correct price? No, because the government lacks omniscience. Do I trust it to ease the tax burden elsewhere if it uses cap and trade to raise revenue? Are you kidding? I live in California, dominated by a political party that spends its life to spend our money. So what? I'll I've done is show that the method is imperfect. It's still better than any other option of which I am aware.
I do, however, agree with you that this thread would be much more readable if we quit insulting each other over the mere fact of disagreement. "I'm right because those who disagree with me are stupid or willfully ignorant" makes outsiders think the speaker, not those who disagree, is the one with the mental deficiency.
John
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 27, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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There will be a period of darkness
Or light
Or a areawakening be it good or bad
The earth continues to turn beyond our frame of reference
Our children will.grow old without us
Its all good . All things will pass
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jan 27, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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The problem isn't capitalism. It's unchecked, unregulated capitalism.
John Adams famously penned the phrase “A government of laws, and not of men”, which has been central to our history. The powerful have constantly tried to subvert this standard. For most of our history, our government / our system has effectively held these usurpers in check. Until recently.
Opinions differ on that last point.
Capitalism works, as long as it's properly held in check. Capitalism drives innovation better than any other system. It's a key component for a carbon neutral society. It's not the only component, but it is a key one.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 27, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
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Two images from today:
(1) HadCRUT4 data just released agree with NOAA, NASA and the Japan Meteorological Agency that 2014 was the warmest year they've seen:
(2) However in our neighborhood lowland blueberries remain out of season.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 27, 2015 - 03:00pm PT
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I don't exaggerate, here are the 10 warmest years per HadCRUT4:
156. | 2007 .49225
157. | 2013 .494167
158. | 2002 .49575
159. | 2009 .504
160. | 2006 .50475
161. | 2003 .507917
162. | 1998 .53675
163. | 2005 .54425
164. | 2010 .556
165. | 2014 .564083
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jan 27, 2015 - 03:13pm PT
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Chiloe,
thanks for posting that,
as likely everyone else does as well (minus 1).
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