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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Jan 27, 2015 - 06:07am PT
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Rick,
Speaking of the high cost of electricty in the north east, those coal burners are shut down because they are converting to natural gas. I know folks that work the nuke plants and they told me to come to Penn. It is easy for travlers to get on because no one wants to quit a long term coal burner conversion for a month long refueling job. I figure if they all go back there, it may be easier for me to get on the Washington site this spring:-)
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jan 27, 2015 - 06:34am PT
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Thanks Roger and DMT.
I know solar and renewables are a drop in the bucket,that is why I mentioned the 2% figure upthread.
That does not mean these "all of the above" renewables should be discarded or discredited.
Solar's economic footprint has grown threefold in the past 2 years.
It is not and never will be FF energy.It is not a bridge either.
If it works up here ,the northern great lakes area,it will work almost anywhere.It is a solution,not a contributor to our problem.
On the grid or off.
That is what should be discussed.
Solutions,Answers,the road to sustainability is a very bumpy one.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jan 27, 2015 - 06:42am PT
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DMT,I believe I have.: )
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Jan 27, 2015 - 07:05am PT
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Dingus,
I refuse to respond in any fashion to insults. If we all did the same maybe they would get the message.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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The MET Office weighs in on the "warmest year" rankings:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/news/release/archive/2015/2014-global-temperature
Nominally this ranks 2014 as the joint warmest year in the record, tied with 2010, but the uncertainty ranges mean it's not possible to definitively say which of several recent years was the warmest.
Colin Morice, a climate monitoring scientist at the Met Office, said: "Uncertainties in the estimates of global temperature are larger than the differences between the warmest years. This limits what we can say about rankings of individual years.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 08:36am PT
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Malnuts offers nothing other than the insistent drum beating.
 The Chief
The Chief, what do you have to offer, except for a continuous argument against anything that just about anybody posts.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 27, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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We want to talk about solutions, right? The only solution is to replace the fossil fuel with something else. Something not currently at our disposal.
But if we kill the global economy along the way to less carbon output, there will be war. I suspect a lot of folks who propose radical solutions know those radical solutions involve wholesale population removal via resource wars... given the oil WILL run out, all out global conflict is the ultimate arbiter?
Right now the only viable alternative to actually replacing electrical generation via fossil fuels is nuclear. Even moreso if we wish to go to mostly electrical transportation. (which is an eventuality) Nuclear is a place most societies are unwilling to go..for some good and many stupid reasons.
SO I realized a while ago we are not going to even try solve this issue in a significant way for many decades. We will when we run out of oil and coal or other things get really really bad. Hopefully the consequences are not as bad as some scenarios suggest.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:00am PT
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ps. Ed? Chiloe? These are your spokespeople.
Uh, no. That perspective comes from your worldview, not mine.
But what did Malemute say, to launch this particular fuss? He quoted Dingus' assertion
That oil is going to get burned, come hell or highwater, literally. and answered
Nope. Not all of us are that stupid.
Dingus can clarify what he meant, but I read his assertion to state that humanity is not smart enough to see trouble coming and make changes before it's too late. To which Malemute disagrees by saying no, not all of us are that stupid. Which seems like a perfectly reasonable, perhaps hopeful, response to Dingus' doleful pessimism. The "stupid" in question would be those who choose oil-burning-come-hell-or-high-water, and sure enough may get both.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 09:03am PT
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Solar panels and wind energy are becoming more and more competitive. Any temporary market hiccups are minor in the big scheme.
Tell that to the 10's of 1000's of people of the NE that can't afford to pay the price of electricity as it has doubled in the past 3-4 month.
Power companies and large enterprise keep trying to figure out how to centralize solar power so they can make a dime off it.
I say our economic system must move away from the growth/debt cycle that we are in. For example, the state should begin to install solar on homes in areas where it will produce the power needed for that house.
What?? Who's gonna pay for it all??
We have to move away from that mindset, because honestly, we're all gonna pay for it one way or another. For example, who paid for the Katrina & Sandy cleanups. How much the cost of this historic blizzard on the east coast? Who pays?
Our world is a closed-loop system, and we must start living with the knowledge that the system needs to be respected. And nourished.
While the die is already cast, to a large extent, there is still things that can be done to begin the adaptation to a world where we understand that we are all in one large community. In other words, we don't care for just our own family, but we care for the health of our community.
This is a fundamental change, away from quarterly profits to a working system.
Of course, we don't have to. But if we want to put up a fight, there are many things that we can do today to begin the transformation:
Dissolve the Fed & our national debt (ever wonder who it is we are in debt to, and why we pay off the loans?)
Install fuel-efficient, high-coverage public transportation and make that the primary mode of transportation by raising the cost of gas for private vehicles
Where it is possible, create civic-owned gardens that produce local foods.
Nationalize fossil fuels and make sure the cost covers the entire round trip of the fuel (which includes the clean up).
In other words, we must start acting as if we are all living in local communities, and each community must become as self-sufficient as possible.
I'm not saying that we must stop all importing/exporting. But, we must roll into all goods the true cost of producing, transporting, and destroying the goods. Crap from China is cheap because we don't pay for the real cost of producing the goods--we are delaying the downstream costs of production clean up.
Take a look at Cheveron and what they did to Ecuador for a glimpse of what I mean. I love it, $2.50/gal. But do you think that covers the coast of cleaning up the Amazon?
We don't have to change, I suppose.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:05am PT
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Most of humanity is actually very intelligent.
But they are suppressed by the stupid few who due to their previous Karmic reactions have made the rest of humanity suffer along their foolish actions .....
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^TWO POSTS ABOVE. Another sucker fish that has taken the fellow traveler meme hook, line and sinker.
Yes stupidity runs rampant in a segment of the populace.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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Climbski as the electrical efficiencies go up on all things that need to be
plugged in the day will come when a few sq yards of PV's on the roof can
supply a family with power. Oh wait. That's already possible.
But what to do when several inches of global warming fall during a storm
like now in Maine? Off grid Solar people hate global warming accumulations.
So we do what is smart and thats to burn a shyt load of coal and have a grid tie in.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:13am PT
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Right now the only viable alternative to actually replacing electrical generation via fossil fuels is nuclear.
Longtime climate scientist and activist Jim Hansen, among others, has done math that reluctantly brought him 'round to a pro-nukes position. There hasn't been a groundswell of support for this view among other scientists (as at the AGU where he presented this view in 2013), for both economic and physical reasons. The economic reasons have to do with the fact that nuke plants are virtually uninsurable (except by passing all risk to the taxpayers) because they can produce huge disasters; they have lifespans measured in decades followed by decommissioning costs that exceed the initial construction; and they produce wastes that remain hazardous for a quarter of a million years.
Where should nuclear wastes go, as we accumulate more and more? Currently a lot is just stored onsite at the plants, which could be building up near you. Physically the best US answer may be in Nevada, to which many Nevadans strenuously object.
So anyway, the nuclear option is certainly under discussion, but I don't think it's moving forward.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 09:17am PT
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Another sucker fish that has taken the fellow traveler meme hook, line and sinker.
Yeah, I suppose.
I refuse to buy a gun and prep, as many individuals are doing. I'd prefer to live in a loving community than to survive in fear that everybody is my enemy.
LA has a 3-day food supply. What do you think that place would look like if you cut off inbound traffic for a week? Do you think that folks might begin to look at their grass lawns and to think, "Gosh, I could have used that space to plant some veggies..."
What do supermarkets in the east coast look like today? Think folks are acting neighborly as they rush the stores?
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 27, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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Look DMT, the passive approach has been tried and failed. You give an inch, they take a mile and tread all over any semblance of rationality or civility. CAGW and its preferred path (and only allowed course) is a terrorist campaign against the general public. You can't negoiate with terrorists as has been proven repeatedly. Besides that reread Kelly's last posts for the insults they contain.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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Regarding nuclear, is not the fuel for plants also a consideration? How much of it is there?
Again, part of the problem is the desire to centralize power plants so large firms can make a profit. That's why there has been so much stonewalling for individual solar. It's coming around now, though, as municipalities cannot meet the needs through centralized alone.
This is akin to the recycling (and now composting) programs. Municipalities are now providing recycling programs because the dumps are getting too full. It's not because they're thinking, "Oh, it's so hip to be Green!"
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 09:25am PT
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Besides that reread Kelly's last posts for the insults they contain.
I beg your pardon?
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