Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
TLP
climber
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 06:00pm PT
|
Finally some actual discussion! My 2c is:
There is no "Solution" any more than there's a "Solution" to the problem of poor food distribution.
The best short term thing to do is some achievable incremental changes that will reduce total GHG emissions. Realistically, public acceptance of any such changes will not happen unless there's some level of international cooperation. In the U.S., if acceptance is too low, we'll vote in a different government and away go any changes. All good, but that means broad acceptance is vital.
Not necessarily in China, they can go about things totally differently. As in, no, you cannot have a car, period, unless you are a crony of some high official. End of topic.
So, you are right DMT that it is a sociopolitical matter, more than a scientific one. But different countries can go about making incremental changes differently, and change can still happen IF there is a means of enforcement via the system of international trade.
These reasons are part of why decidedly-right-wing (but fairly pragmatic and rational) folks like the editors of Economist mag. favor just a carbon tax. It's inherently totally capitalistic: let industries and individuals figure out what the means will be, once faced with a financial incentive (disincentive). And it is practical because once it's in place it can go up or down easily, kind of tightening the thumb screws if there isn't enough reduction. And it's much easier to apply across borders.
The one key aspect of such an approach is the necessity of ensuring that the money realized from it goes somewhere useful, specifically, to adaptations like flood control, food security, etc. That's by far the hardest thing but is essential, otherwise that acceptance goes away and we're back to square one.
The biggest useful change the U.S. could make quickly would be to change the system of land use planning. We spend a lot of carbon emissions on transportation, and that is largely due to a planning regime that encourages sprawl. Unfortunately, it's a state matter, so that carbon tax might have to get awfully high before backward-thinking states change their tune.
Flame away, gents!
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
|
The way I see it, capitalism will end one way or the other. We can either change it on our own free will, or not. The idea of continuous growth is ill-conceived, and that is one of the founding principals of our current economic system.
Tell a CEO that in order to survive, they have to cut profits by 10% year over year. Will it fly? Many will say no. I say it has to.
What if we lived in a world where the people who worked at a company were part of decision-making process (egads, what a crazy thought!), in that they decided "what they were going to make, where they were going to make it, and how they made it."
I could go on, but the truth is, radical change is coming our way. The Chief says we have to learn to adapt. But when we talk about some of the adaptations that will need to be made, there is only resistance. Simply, folks don't want to change their status quo.
So what do you say. Do you live for today, or do you prepare for tomorrow? If you want to prepare, then we're going to have to take some serious steps now.
|
|
TLP
climber
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
|
In practical terms, you're right K-man, capitalism as presently practiced in the U.S. is doomed, because one of these days, the screwees will wake up to that fact, it will lose its current broad acceptance, and it will get changed. (Doesn't matter whether people are being stupid in that acceptance: like it or not, it's broadly accepted to the chagrin of some.)
But diverting off to what one thinks the endgame might be (endlessly debatable) delays making meaningful changes for the better. Our health care system is going to be toast too someday soon, but waiting to make any improvements until it totally collapses is not a good idea.
So, in the interim, why not take advantage of some of the tools that exist within the current system?
|
|
Splater
climber
Grey Matter
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
|
"Ed? Chiloe? These are your spokespeople."
No one and everyone is a spokesperson. You listen to who you want to.
It's very easy to get sidetracked into tangents, special interests, blaming someone else, and ingrained (wrong) beliefs. Which will just continue denialism. Faux news would have you believe that there is a climate no-go zone near every shining newsstand.
But progress only results when policy makers focus on the main points of what is necessary and reasonable and what will work, and don't waste time dealing with every little nitpick.
A good spokesperson is the entire IPCC, and broad reports such as Malemute posted this morning.
For example, Gore is not the one true climate expert anymore than sarah palin is the one true wise conservative thinker.
|
|
Splater
climber
Grey Matter
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
|
"A tax on carbon emissions will unleash a wave of innovation to develop technologies."
That is exactly correct. High gasoline prices (until just recently) were a prime factor in driving new technology in batteries, hybrids, and motors.
Which says we should raise fossil fuel taxes immediately to prevent the wasteful inefficient choices that result from cheap fossil fuel.
Solar panels and wind energy are becoming more and more competitive. Any temporary market hiccups are minor in the big scheme.
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 06:47pm PT
|
Splater FTW.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:03pm PT
|
You have European laboratory to look at for the theory that high carbon taxes will drive innovation to the next generation of clean energy technology. Last time I took a close look the already sky high European energy prices were "neccessarily skyrocketing", but countries like Germany are going backwards on CO2 emissions because of all the new electrical generation from coal as the neccessary backup to economically unsustainable and intermittent wind and solar.
The answer ( if your a paranoid CO2 freak) is replacement of coal with new generation nuclear and clean burning natural gas which we have in abundance. This is something that would naturally happen In this country if the totalitarian statists rabid enviros would get out of the way.
EDIT: Well thankyou Wilbeer, coming from you I take that as a compliment.
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:03pm PT
|
Doing fine and they are made in Ohio.
Wrong about CC.
Wrong about Renewables.
You 2 are a credit to your cause.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:26pm PT
|
My god, Malnuts, near eighty degrees in your house
What a hipocrite.
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
|
I tore them off of a Republicans house in suburban Dayton ,Ohio ,8 years ago and paid 2k for the whole system ,batteries,controllers ,inverter.
They are pictured here at a co-op shop I am part of[Had to move them from my present house before I listed],one bank will run my next house.
I start building that house the 27th of Febuary.
They paid for themselves 3 times now.
They never have been hooked TTG.
Even Ed has said that only 2% of our energy comes from renewables,which I agree with,that does not mean I like it.
That will change because it has to.
I have been beating the drum for renewables since day one and you know it.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
|
Do you take the batteries in for recycling when they wear out Wilbeer?
Two thousand bucks. What a deal. I should think about flying you out west for shopping and installation. Would still be way ahead even without the rebates and tax credits.
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
|
I do not get ANY tax breaks with a battery system.None.
I bought used batteries and have added some ,but ,yet to have to recycle one,in 8 years.
It is all about set up and maintenance,which is not Climate Science.
That solar bank has made me and 2 other contractors some real cash running our shop.
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
|
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/01/26/3614429/minnesota-community-solar-for-community-action/
Now if a solid majority was with it
I am going to say this,solar is upgradable ,You can start small and move up from there,dependent on your needs,how is that non affordable,or exclusive.
If you think you need 14k worth of power for the average american family,well there is the problem.You do not ,for subsides ATG you have to have an oversize array to power the grid.That cost money.
With things like DC refrigerators and well pumps [that do not cost more]a small 4000 watt array is all that is needed.
The 2k system is not my only one and I started very small .
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
|
ps. Ed? Chiloe? These are your spokespeople. So no, you don't have to propose anything. Just leave it up to the malemutes. They are winning hearts and minds all over the place!
I don't recall designating spokespeople, why do you make that assumption? People can speak for themselves, I'll speak for myself.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
|
BTW, here in CA, the governor mandated that NO one can be independent of or set up a system that free from the grid.
Is this true?
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 08:11pm PT
|
That is what makes it prohibitive^^^^^^^
|
|
TLP
climber
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
|
Whoa, Rick, did I misunderstand or weren't you just posting a day or so ago that something would come along when the petroleum runs out? I think the likely reality is somewhere in between: incentive isn't strong enough yet, but we'll get alternatives partly on line before the oil is totally gone.
The Germany example is a bit misleading: they closed down their nuclear after Fukushima. I agree the State should get out of the coal world, just make the coal-related industry pay its true environmental cost in lost watershed, waste disposal, impacts on miners themselves, air, etc. And sh$tcan the subsidies to oil exploration, depletion allowance, etc etc etc etc, too. Then the market would definitely favor something else. Yes, there is a problem with State intervention, but in the opposite way you're representing it.
Totally agree with you about the inevitable necessity of a new generation of nuclear power and of use of natural gas - but make the fracking industry pay its full surface water contamination and solid waste disposal costs too. Not the rest of us who don't get the income from it. There's trillions in present and future revenue sloshing around that industry too, no reason the state or federal taxpayers should clean up their mess.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
|
So you're saying if I put a few 100 watt panels on my roof and run my water heater and my lights without tying into the grid I'll be breaking the law?
That's stupid ...... :-)
No really that's stupid?
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
|
It is totally legal here.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
|
I can "see" another point?
I might be totally wrong though.
If ... that's an IF all the solar installations were tied to the grid wouldn't that reduce the overall demand on the grid itself?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!