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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2017 - 09:57am PT
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"we are but a product of accidents within the structure of evolutionary processes and no more than a temporary byproduct of that process ...
Sorry ... but complete horsesh!t made by clueless people ...
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nov 10, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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REALITY keeps getting in the way...
Yes.
And if that wasn't bad enough...
Reality isn't what it used to be.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Nov 10, 2017 - 10:34am PT
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Reality's having a hard time in the US...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Nov 10, 2017 - 10:47am PT
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Sorry ... but complete horsesh!t made by clueless people ...
Tried to point that out but people love it. It's depressing.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Nov 10, 2017 - 11:35am PT
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What is meaningfulness exactly, anyhow? It's not clear at all to me that belief in God or eternal life would make your life any more meaningful. I'm not at all depressed about the meaning of my life. I am a bit depressed that my climbing skills have been steadily declining I guess. But only a little, and it quickly goes away with a beer.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
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What is the logical or physical barrier that machine learning cannot get past? I may misunderstand your point, but it sounds far-seeing.
An even cursory analysis of a cubic millimeter of brain suggests the physical basis of sentience is far beyond the level of complexity and efficiency achievable by artificial means. It's again an optimized product of evolution for which there are no technological shortcuts.
If living organisms do it, then it's behavior. Something exhibiting behavior defines life - no behavior, no life. If only conscious behavior (human or living) defines life then instinctual behavior doesn’t?
Better read that again, I made no distinction between conscious and unconscious behavior in that statement.
If programmed and instinctual behavior are the same then how is your toaster not a living thing?
I didn't say that behavior was the only criteria for life, just that there is no life without behavior - my toaster doesn't have a metabolism or reproduce for instance.
This is a remarkably anemic definition of knowing that completely ignores the natural, inherent gift of reason among other things.
It is natural, but it's not a gift but rather an evolved behavior.
Is there knowledge outside sensory experience? If not what is the source of reason? When Socrates demonstrates the inherent knowledge of the Pythagorean Theory in a young boy who had never heard of such a thing, what does that mean?
It means we have a great capacity for pattern recognition, contextualization and retention. Some animals can count, what does that mean?
What is it in science that wants to diminish the unique gift that it is to be human?
Is it fear that requires most men to elevate themselves above all the other creatures on the planet and create gods in their own image?
Magic? ... but we think of it as a separate phenomenon in itself, appearing in a variety of complex ways.
Oops, you digress back into panpsychism when you suggest consciousness is a phenomena of the universe like gravity: "The second idea Chalmers postulates, is that consciousness might be universal and that every system down to the elementary particles has degrees of consciousness. This view is also called panpsychism in philosophy or nonduality in the mystical traditions." It's either that or some form of god-as-johnny-appleseed as you're back to why brains? And what's the difference between brain and bone that one would be imbued with such magic and the other wouldn't?
...the implication of a continuum of intelligence is a supreme intelligence...
The concept of infinity really doesn't apply well to intelligence, organic or otherwise.
Divine: in this context a metaphor for an ultimate intelligence having nothing to do with magic.
Sigh...well, an ultimate intelligence, by definition, would be magic. The only thing this abiding and persistent need for a god, any god(s), conveys to me is the depths of our fears.
I think the dismissal of human cultural achievement and likewise what it is to be human which goes like this: we are but a product of accidents within the structure of evolutionary processes and no more than a temporary byproduct of that process and so what we achieve in this life is essentially meaningless, as the earth is but a dust speck in the infinite vastness of the universe and soon we will suffer the heat death and all our culture and achievement will vanish into the oblivion of nothingness, that is we really are insignificant and we should be aware of the insignificance of our position in context; this is a product of two things: the vestige of Christianity that declares the eternal as necessary to meaning and the Romanticism of nature worship that filled the vacancy of that defeated Christianity. And I say this with all the desperation and stupidity I can muster.
a) We are an optimal expression of life for the current state of the ecology of the planet. Given planetary conditions are dynamic and ever-changing, humanity is, at best, a temporary evolutionary response no different than the dinosaurs. But hey, they managed to eek out a couple of hundred million years (though I suspect humanity will be quite short-lived by comparison).
b) Yes, all aspects of life are meaningless unless you find or create meaning for it. But when you're gone, so goes that meaning unless you can convey it to someone else, say in your art, in which case it might survive you. I suggest giving it all you've got while you're here if you actually care about such legacy.
c) In cosmological terms the achievements of life are insignificant - one can easily suspect the wondrous achievements of billions of advanced cultures have been rendered so much dust and they are in fact meaningless to you as you know nothing of them.
d) You certainly cling to that notion of the eternal (ultimate) as necessary to meaning. And you mistake a simple recognition all forms of life are equally unique and 'miraculous' with a "Romanticism of nature worship".
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Nov 10, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
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It's not a gift, it's an evolved behavior
An evolved behavior is no less a gift and here an important one. Behavior doesn’t come close to explaining inherent reason.
It means we have a great capacity for pattern recognition, retention and contextualization. Some animals can count, what does it mean?
And that ability for pattern recognition is inherent and, again, a priori to sensory input and behavior.
Yes, animals can count, though they have trouble with their times tables and birds and elephants make art though you rarely see them at the art store. Again with the romantic nonsense of you’re not special see that horse count to ten.
Is it fear that requires most men to elevate themselves above all the other creatures on the planet and create gods in their image?
No it’s not fear. It’s the desire to make sense, meaning and reconciliation out of and to our existence. The ubermensch science crowd may rise above such petty nonsense into the joyful embrace of cold hard reality but billions of folks on this planet find comfort in their belief systems and they do it without radicalism and/or impeding scientific progress. Remember the uberman was just the romantic fantasy of Nietzsche.
The concept of infinity really doesn't apply well to intelligence, organic or otherwise.
Sigh...well, an ultimate intelligence, by definition, would be magic. The only thing this abiding and persistent need for a god, any god(s), conveys to me is the depths of our fears.
This is just fluff that doesn’t argue much of anything. I will say this: god or the idea of god is the single most ubiquitous mythical idea in the world producing some 4000 religions world-wide. There is something going on here and to explain such a phenomenon away as simply a product of fear lacks all insight and understanding of the issue. Believe me there’s much more to fear from science than some mothers hope for her children manifested and made efficacious through prayer to what ever god she happens to believe in.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Nov 10, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
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c) In cosmological terms the achievements of life are insignificant - one can easily suspect the wondrous achievements of billions of advanced cultures have been rendered so much dust and they are in fact meaningless to you as you know nothing of them.
Really? And why are they meaningless? Because they're not of an eternal nature. It's you not me that hangs on to the validation of eternity which is plain nonsense.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
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There is something going on here and to explain such a phenomenon away as simply a product of fear lacks all insight and understanding of the issue.
Fear is the only thing going on here other than a hope something ultimate can protect us from the patently unjust vagaries of life.
It's you not me that hangs on to the validation of eternity.
Eternal is what it is, I associate no value of any kind with it beyond acknowledging its reality from our human perspective. And what would longevity have to do with meaning? Does meaning exist without a consciousness to appreciate it? Do you somehow recognize the meaning and significance of the cultural achievements of the society of a planet obliterated by a supernova three billion years ago? Does anybody?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Nov 10, 2017 - 02:26pm PT
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Eternal is what it is, I associate no value of any kind with it beyond acknowledging its reality from our human perspective. And what would longevity have to do with meaning? Does meaning exist without a consciousness to appreciate it? Do you somehow recognize the meaning and significance of the cultural achievements of the society of a planet obliterated by a supernova three billion years ago? Does anybody?
Your whole validation of meaning is predicated on an eternal nature: for you the reason life has no meaning is because it all ends. This is a vestige of Christianity which is predicated and validated on the notion of the eternal. Here's a scoop you don't need eternity to find meaning, the end doesn't mean jack. It's the moment here and now that is eternal in and of itself.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
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You are entirely mistaken, a moment or an eternity, duration and ending are irrelevant to meaning. Someone being around to create, find or appreciate meaning is - no someone; no meaning.
We do, however, agree meaning is here and now in the moment, but nothing is more ephemeral than a moment, person, species or planet come and gone.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Nov 10, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
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1.Do you somehow recognize the meaning and significance of the cultural achievements of the society of a planet obliterated by a supernova three billion years ago? Does anybody?
2. You are entirely mistaken, duration and ending are entirely irrelevant to meaning. Someone being around to create, find or appreciate meaning is - no someone; no meaning.
Do you see the contradiction i n these two statements?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
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None whatsoever; they are entirely consistent.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2017 - 04:03pm PT
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bwahahahaha ....
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 10, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
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You can suspect anything you want but nevertheless the implication of a continuum of intelligence is a supreme intelligence
You have successfully reconciled with the Divine.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Nov 10, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
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There is growing evidence that paul roehl and healyje have outsourced their ST posts.
hJoe at the very least....
Solid observation
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 10, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
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we are but a product of accidents within the structure of evolutionary processes
What's most interesting to me is reason based hypothesis (as opposed to mythology) that suggest there is more to it than that.
Evolution has been at work on billions of planets for billions of years. Was it an accident that there is highly intelligent life or was it inevitability?
There are many examples of evolutionary convergence in which different organisms arrive at the same function through different evolutionary pathways. Perhaps on many planets there is a niche for highly intelligent life.
Sure there were MANY happy "accidents" (for us anyway) that led to homo sapiens being the highly intelligent species on Earth, but that doesn't mean something else couldn't have been the intelligent life here. Maybe if the chicxulub meteor didn't hit there would be an intelligent dinosaur species here instead. All it would take is a few population bottlenecks where the individuals that made it through had high intelligence.
So mind may be common in the universe, and perhaps there is a universal aspect of intelligence and awareness we don't understand yet.
P.S. meaning is a sticky topic to contemplate, too subjective; I think purpose is an easier one to tackle.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Nov 11, 2017 - 07:38am PT
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Of course gravity had no existence prior to Newton. Newton invented it. It's a theory.
Do you think objects plummeted to the earth any differently when "gravity" didn't exist?
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