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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 20, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
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Yay supermama!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 20, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
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You are the devotional gnome boy-o!
Since we don't have a name for you it's the best we could do to approximate your personality in response to your smurfy little post...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 20, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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Supermama- So which Hollywood celebrity have you selected to portray your own bad self in the upcoming Big Screen epic 3-D film (4-D with the Scratch-N-Sniff cards)?!?
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kaitb
Big Wall climber
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Aug 20, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
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I think #1SuperMama should be played by Jamie Lee Curtis. They are both smokin' hot!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 20, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
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A Star is Born!
Funny that Jamie Lee appeared upthread already!
Deucey- I would love to know what constitutes "irrational" posting on this topic? Other than the "ankle wasn't sprained, it was dislocated" squabble I can't imagine anything else rising to the level of "irrational" discourse. Care to be specific?
Perhaps it was the "quasi-historical vivisection" part. LOL
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 20, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
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Steve, no offense, but when you got fired up to do the SA, it was a bit odd.
Of course we're all wondering why the issue of their intentions about the finish to Aquarian is so important to you.
On reflection, and it really seems to me that the original context has really been lost. It appears to me that the "ethical" issue of chiselling was unknown to these guys at the time, as I noticed in some quotes from 2006:
This is what I once wrote:
The difference to me is that any modification was considered a failure in the minds of wall climbers (and sometimes we fail--nobody's perfect), but on WOS it was used as a "progressive" technique for upward progress.
The other thing that most people wouldn't really realise, unless they had considerable experience establishing first big wall ascents, is just how easy it would be to create a route of nightmare difficulty for the second ascent by "creating" difficult and in-obvious placements customized for the first ascent climber. This was just considered flat-out stupid, selfish, and egotistical. And that's how a route like that appears to someone in the mindset of doing first ascents.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 20, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
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Good stuff sir..."
The other thing that most people wouldn't really realise, unless they had considerable experience establishing first big wall ascents, is just how easy it would be to create a route of nightmare difficulty for the second ascent by "creating" difficult and in-obvious placements customized for the first ascent climber. This was just considered flat-out stupid, selfish, and egotistical. And that's how a route like that appears to someone in the mindset of doing first ascents.
Talk to Minerals and Eric about that ...........
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 20, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
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You will need someone with more Smooch-O-Licious Lips to play Annie.
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P.Rob
Social climber
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Aug 20, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
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Seeing the reoccurring themes of scatology, accusation, innuendos, and irreverence’s coupled with the eternal searches of meaning, purpose, reconciliation, redemption and propitiation on this thread – the size of its present state is more rope like - I have finally mustered the courage to come clean , confess and repent of my own past scatological and ethical sins – asking forgiveness from all.
While a few years after WOS, but still in the heady 80’s – somewhere around 87’, 88’ – my apologies as it is challenging to be precise – the evil of my bowels manifested while climbing Fantasia at Lovers Leap.
Approximately 24 hours before arriving in Tahoe I had inadvertently consumed liquids from a water bottle that a full blown pettier dish of mold growing on the bottom. I had not been aware of this infestation due to the color of the liquid (TEA) having been very successful at hiding its presents, only discovering it as I drained the last of the Brew. While no immediate affects were felt by the Moldy Tea, save perhaps a bit of revulsion at the idea of having consumed it, I really was no worse for the wear and was somewhat surprised at how tasty the Brew was. There was a passing concern of what might follow, but I shook off that fear with the confidence I had of my intestinal fortitude having been built up & trained by the consummation of street food and local cuisine at many a suspect joint.
Prior to the start of 1st pitch the evil aroused, a veritable, and in truth, flood of scatological effusion of torrential proportions. In truth I had never previously nor since experienced such gastrointestinal release. The brew had in effect become a galloping colonic with a projectile force of an almost possessed nature. Having tended to this need I thought all was safe – and it was until I had to leave the 2nd belay. It hit again as I started to follow the 3rd. I quickly evaluated my options, seeing them limited, I chose the following. Having no other container than the thin plastic bag that one uses when purchasing produce from the local megamart, I quickly acted. Thankfully both legs loops and my grammici pants obliged, and with moments the effusion was contained – a full of bag of liquid scat.
I have finally arrived at the crux of my testimony, and it is here that I seek absolution and forgiveness. Here I was with a full bag of shat whose consistency was completely fluidic with no solid matter. Now what to do with it? I could not portage it, and I was fearful of tossing it overboard with the many unethical taboos associated with that, no less than the fecal bag rupturing ( the material of the bag being thin as a condom and even less reliable) on its descent, spraying all below with an afternoon rain burst of shite. It was at this moment I made my fateful decision, one I have repented of numerous times in the subsequent years. I tied the bag, and all its contents, to the belay.
My hope, knowing that Fantasia was not a well traveled route at the time, is that the bag would hold long enough for the contents to finally decompose. I have always feared that the route was soon done after my heinous actions, and that the poor individuals were met by the waste of my youth. In truth, I hope none were hurt as my actions were the culminations of youthful indiscretions and impetuousness coupled with a lack of wisdom, experience and discernment.
Thank you all and I am hoping time heals all wounds. I pray that all may prosper in everyway and be in good health, even as your soul prospers.
Montani Semper Liberi
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 20, 2011 - 08:43pm PT
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P Rob- Thanks for spilling your...story.
Just imagine the stew Richard and Mark would have found themselves in after 39 days up there had they been required to haul all their dookie along as climbers do now rather than being able to toss it off easily.
John- I posted my disinterest in doing WOS several times before the gauuntlet hit the floor. I was interested in climbig up Horse Chute and swinging over to Pitch #9 to inspect the top three or four pitches that hadn't been visited again.
With all the froth and vitriol, only Skip had the sense to ask why I would even want to climb such a route and I don't, never did. No substitute for direct inspection is what I said and that doesn't necessarily mean repeating and validating WOS.
I certainly have no interest in fanning the flames of matyrdom...LOL
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 20, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
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From 2008
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=516588&msg=517957#msg517957
Steve Grossman: "If you are using a hook as a chisel albeit an odd one the same applies. If you used a carabiner as a chisel or punch, the same. Intentional impact force. Pretty clear really."
Thank you for answering my question. Whatever other differences we have, I have to give you credit for stating strong convictions.
The "invisible" enhancements are, to me, the most serious issue with the WOS route. As you point out, such enhancements make if very difficult for a party to cleanly repeat the route, without making additional enhancements. I agree that the points you make on these enhancements are valid. But I do not understand why you accuse Richard and Mark of lying about them. The only reason we know about these enhancements is because Richard told us about them. He was forthcoming about them from the beginning.
John Mittendorf has also been critical of the "invisible" enhancements. I have found his posts to be reasonable. But the Big Walls, coauthored by John Mittendorf and John Long, states, "Sometimes a slight tap with the hammer will set a hook securely on a flake." (p. 98) Might not doing this unintentionally cause some damage to the rock and create an "invisible" enhancement?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 20, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
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Dissing a route that you have not climbed is always weak sauce.
You spout climbing ethics but what about human ethics? Deficating on people, chopping their bolts without climbing the rout.. All very poor behavior in human terms...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 20, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
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A real low point for infantile provincials.
Is that quote correct? Did Long and Deuce endorse tapping hooks?
Then we must be getting into the flea circus of hair splitting.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 20, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
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The internet has made it clear that few are consistent with their thoughts, words and deeds over time and it's debatable whether that would even be a virtue. I would say that if you change your mind for yourself, or your friends, the same standard should apply to others in similar straights.
It's laughable to criticize a tiny tap of the hammer to set a hook and stuff like that. A monumental percentage of big walls have gone up with major whacks of the hammer to place heads, pins, bolts, clean cracks and on and on.
Since when has anybody been that clean?
Peace
Karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 20, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
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Turdman-Stealing my wife's line is WEAK SAUCE, Big Guy.
My credibility and record have never been an issue.
And just so you know, Mimi and I never crapped or chopped these guy's gear or route.
Try to keep up n'kay...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 20, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
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Piton Ron,
Yes, this is in the 1994 edition on page 98. I have it here next to my computer.
"Hooking sounds scary, but many hook placements are bomber; some are so secure they can be left for protection, perhaps even duct-taped to the stone to secure them. Sometimes a slight tap with the hammer will set a hook securely on a flake."
Edit--I pointed this out in 2008. You can follow the link to the discussion. Middendorf responded "the tap is meant to "set" the hook, not "create" the hook placement."
I do not doubt what his intensions are. But I want to point out that when sharp, hard steel is hammered (even "slightly") against a granite flake, SOMETHING is going to give, and it's going to be the stone. The steel is harder and stronger than the stone.
When you "set" a hook "securely" by hammering it like this, you are creating a "micro-enhancement."
There is no difference in hammering a hook into the rock or a chisel. Most hooks are just as sharp or hard as a chisel, sometimes more so.
So Middendorf, and probably many many other wall climbers, have been making micro-enhancements for years--just without realizing it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 20, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
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You guys certainly talk like 8th graders with all the name calling. you are most definatly on the side of the crappers and choppers. You have both posted many times supporting those actions. I suggest that kind of behavior is poor form and you respond with name calling. Pretty classy stuff.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 20, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
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"Hooking sounds scary, but many hook placements are bomber; some are so secure they can be left for protection, perhaps even duct-taped to the stone to secure them. Sometimes a slight tap with the hammer will set a hook securely on a flake." (John Middendorf with John Long edits).
Actually, what I envisioned when writing that statement (as evidenced by the fact that we are talking about bomber hooks), there are the times when the hook is going completely over a flake that is separated from the wall. If, for example, the hook has a inch of space between the back and the tip, and the top of the flake is just over an inch in width, then tapping the hook (to allow it to spring open a bit) might help set it.
I can't really see when tapping on a hook on a flat edge would help unless you really wailed on it, and I was always too scared to do that to my thin metal hooks.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 20, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
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I have no idea what you guys used back then. i only got into serious hooking about 10 years ago. The talon hooks seem realy good for thin stuff. Did you have anything that good BINTD?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
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We all already knew that Deucy.
The term was "granite flake" not edges.
But the sh'it head supertopo tool graniteclimber who's only purpose here is to stir up sh'it can't for the life of him get it.
You ever hooked? Ya idiot granite numbskull sh'it talker.
God you're a fuking tool ....
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