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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 30, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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So Jello, no wonder you haven't answered.
If your goat is getting frosted does that mean its time to sharpen up the tools?
Personally I think Pat has a lot of guts opening his heart to us.
If I was attacked by Dakota Fanning I wouldn't be nearly so forthright.
You should fight back with Bridwell's hammer.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2009 - 09:48pm PT
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Jan describes my surprisingly cheerful demeanor, but
what she speaks about is a slap-happy thing that is
the result of two weeks without sleep. Imagine Stan Laurel,
after about ten shots of whiskey, a big smile, voice rises,
he giggles... It would not be correct to say I am just pleased
as punch about things.
As for my insurance, yes I have the kind that takes care of catastrophic
situations, such as surgery, but it has about $1500 deductible every
six months. So if I have to go to the urgent care center, just as the
next six month period begain, I get to pay for everything. My regular
normal medicines for the month were about $250. a couple days ago. I am an
artist and never have been rolling in dough.
I don't exactly have a million people around, as Jan suggests,
just my two daughters who are at school all day and one karate black
belt student of mine who just had knee surgery and came over to
give me his crutches. This is a great blessing, because it has
been murder to walk the twenty feet to go to the bathroom. The
crutches take the stress off the leg. He also left with me a special
brace-wrap that can be filled with ice water, and I have wrapped it
around my knee, above and below, and so I don't have to try to
hold the supermarket plastic bags together with ice in them until
they start to leak and drip.
I am indeed happy to say the pain has lessened slightly
today, as a result of doing absolutely nothing at all. I simply
climbed into my recliner, reclined, and have several big pillows to
elevate my knee to about heart level, as I am told is good.
I know it's totally right when I am told by some of you to get off
the leg and stay off it. I have begun to believe this is the main reason
I haven't healed and in fact have gotten worse, that I have not
gotten off the leg. Had I elevated the leg and not moved much at
all, from the star, perhaps I would have been on the mend by now.
But instead I thought movement would help keep the blood flowing, and
I needed to go about my business. I don't think I'm stubborn,
and most of my own assessments have matched those of the doctors. I first
thought, if I can stand on the leg at all then it's not broken, and
that's what the doctor said when I finally went in for the X-ray. I then
determined (guessed) blood was pooling into my knee and pinching off
arteries or nerves, and my doctor said that's exactly what is happening.
I have tried various things, but I did not try to sit and do nothing,
and that's what's next.
If I feel anything strange (I have been
told what the symptoms are of blood clots), I will certainly call someone
first and get a ride to the urgent care center. Last night I did have
some strange breathing things, and a few times today if I fell asleep
for a few minutes I would wake up gasping, as I don't seem to want
to breathe while I sleep. I'm monitoring myself pretty carefully
though.
One thing some will laugh at, but truly I feel a healing power
that seems to flow toward me from my community of friends. I think we
actually do have the power to help one another, even to heal. Later this
afternoon, earlier, I really felt this -- as though I was being touched
by some positive outside influence, and it greatly raised my spirits.
So I'm doing nothing, basically, have crutches to move around (except
when I have to go upstairs), and have this ice wrap for my knee. I am
taking a little asprin, just to thin my blood a little, although my
understanding is that blood thinners could have bad results for one such
as I, what with the diabetes. They could keep the bleeding going on, and
they could prevent healing.
I am greatly appreciative of everyone's concern and love. Thank you very
much. If this writing seems incoherent, it's only because I am
incoherent, after so little sleep. I don't have energy to go back
and proof anything. But you can forgive that easy enough. And
please keep sending your good energy my way. I welcome everything
I can get.
Will report again later,
Pat
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 30, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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Let's hope that, one way or the other, the health care payment bills that seem likely to pass in the near future (Senate and House) will lead to change that at least reduces the numbers of this sort of incident. The final result will be imperfect, but surely better than the current 'system'. And a bump for Pat.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
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Ok, bouts on and off with the same pain, but a tiny
bit less overall. The crutches help to keep weight off
the leg, for sure. I think I may have found the way
to move in the right direction finally. Thanks a whole
lot for everyone's concern.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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Maybe not so fast.
I was feeling better this evening, a great sigh
of relief, even if I still was in pain. The pain had
lost some of its edge. Then, later this evening,
when I was talking with Curt on the phone,
well, my battery died. And suddenly, soon after, my whole
right side, starting with my hip joint (!) began
to hurt real good. The knee doesn't hurt now,
it's the hip foremost, then on down the leg in
general. Really interesting changing symptoms.
I had thought tonight might
be the night to get some sleep... I was really
hopeful, but now it's not looking like it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 31, 2009 - 02:38am PT
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Pat-
The pain in the hip and down the leg is almost certainly sciatica. The main cure for that is a good chiropractor adjusting the vertebrae in your lower back and getting you pelvis aligned again. It would be painful, but it might also put an instant end to most of the pain if you can find a good one. If not, a maseuse who could unknot some of the muscles in your lower back would help too.
Over here chiropractors and Shiatsu specialists charge $30 but in the U.S, it's probably three times more?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 31, 2009 - 02:56am PT
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hey there pat, say, after reading your last post and jan's, you know this is true, also, sciatic nerve trouble CAN possibly be part of the trouble, too (not saying it actuall is, just tossing something in to check out, as well):
your sciatic nerve CAN get damaged from a fall---it is one of the main causes listed (along with lifting from odd angles, with a heavy weight off-sided)...
reason being, all kinds of swelling in the hip area, can then press on the sciatic nerve:
and--the pain does not go away unless you do nothing, but rest the leg...
and--if it is from swelling, the swelling must go down, for the pressure to stop...
and--it will go all down the leg...
and--in many cases, you can not even walk...
and--if you do, you risk the sciatic nerver getting worse, and buidling scar tissue around it...
and--it can take up to a 6 months to a year to get better... :O
(thought, this of course depends on the who, what, and whys, as to each injury)
well, rest up, seems to be the name-of-the-game...
even critters know when to rest, and they seem to handle it better than people-folks...
hang in there... and god bless...
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2009 - 05:16am PT
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Not a bad guess, Jan, the sciatica thing, but I don't think that's
what it is. I had a very good friend who had severe sciatica
once, and I used to more or less be in charge of carrying
him out to his car when it was time to head to the doctor
or the hospital, and I sat in on quite a few of his sessions
with the doctor and became familiar with the symtoms of
sciatia, including where the sciatic nerve is exactly. It
is very specific and quite easy to diagnose because of that
specific way it runs down, more or less, the back/side of the
leg. It is possible I have done a little damage to that nerve,
right at the point of impact, the trashed area of my right leg
on the right (femur) side, and we'll see how that goes. But
I have another simpler theory. What with all the elevating of
my leg, strangely now, the blood has run the other way and
begun to pool in my right hip joint, just as before it had
pooled in my knee. I think it's virtually that, with
one complication. And you suggested this one in our phone
conversation, that I might actually have taken some of the
force of the fall with my right hip, and there is a soreness
there that I haven't paid much attention to thus far because the
soreness of other areas has been so much more severe. But as
I feel a little relief at times from the side of my thigh and from the
knee, the hip soreness becomes apparent -- but in conjunction with
the pooling to aggravate it further. Anyway, that's my theory.
Several people have suggested I need to be in the hospital.
That seems a little extreme just at the moment, although the
only time I was in the hospital for any length of days years
and years ago a group of candy stripers, as they were called,
fought over who got to take care of me. That strangely appeals
to me right now, but I was young and then and handsome, and
I doubt that would happen now, but really I would
need some kind of motivation like that to justify such an action.
What I might need, though, is some of the pain stuff they give
people after surgery. After I had the gall bladder out they shot
me up with some kind of stuff that really does get to the affected
areas. Oxycodone takes the edge off things such as neuropathy and
some kinds of shoulder pain, etc., but doesn't touch this leg pain,
not one intsy bit. What I might consider, though, at some point,
if things don't change is a cat scan. The last MRI I had, well,
it was comical, as I have severe claustrophobia (don't ask me to
describe what went through my mind each time I squeezed through
the Narrows on Sentinel). After refusing to go into that MRI
tunnel enough times, they gave me a couple Xanex. At that point
I was ready to be buried alive...
I actually got a couple hours sleep, from around midnight
to after two. It was difficult to
drift off, because my whole leg hurt, but I did. Then at 2:30 I
woke up with a strange sore throat way up high in the top back
of my mouth, almost in the roof of my mouth and not in my throat,
or one could say at the very top of the throat above the tonsils.
Don't know what that is about. And lying there in bed with only
moderate elevation of leg, on the big pillow, the pain is back
in my knee again and seems to have rolled down out of the hip for
now. I plan to sit still again all day today.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2009 - 09:46am PT
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Got a few winks of sleep from about 3:30 a.m. to 7:30,
but this sore throat now really hurts, and it's hard f(super pain-
ful) to swallow. I don't have any other flu-like symptoms, or cold
symptoms. I really don't want to catch the virus or flu
or whatever it was my daughters had a few days back. Not on top
of everything else goin' on right now. But with
all the speculation we've done here, I begin to wonder if
it's some kind of symptom of one of these other situations...
I tried a throat lozenge, but it did nothing. Will try to gargle
in hot salt water now.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2009 - 10:39am PT
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Dang, no help from the hot salt water.
What next? Swine flu, probably, right?
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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I feel like a truck hit me.
wickedly sore throat.
Leg back to full pain, in varying
places depending on position I
get in. No use to anyone right now.
Count your blessings if you're
able to get outside, take in
some sun... eat... sleep...
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 31, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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If the sore throat doesn't get better in a day or so, start suspecting strep throat. You might place a call to the nurse at your doctor's office for advice.
Now that I think about it, your leg may be infected. I'm worried about you.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 31, 2009 - 10:48pm PT
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Patrick,
How's the swelling in the leg? What color is it? If you forget the pain, do you think the leg is getting better?
With the cold or flu I wish a truck would hit me and finish the job. Maybe a corner of you sent that slab back in time preemptively but it failed its mission. Next time it'll be the good guy.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2009 - 02:59am PT
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There doesn't seem to be anything I can do.
I took four oxycodones, and it doesn't touch
this pain. If the doctor, and some say she's one
of the best around, can't do anything, then
what? I can't take many more of these nights up.
I had two points when the pain went away for
about forty-five minutes, then came back with
such a ferocity it felt worse than it ever was.
Thank heaven the sore throat has subsided greatly.
I found some ecinachea throat coat stuff, and a
few cups of that helped my throat a lot, but
it upset my stomach some. By the way, I don't
snore, and I haven't been asleep enough to snore
long enough, if I did. As for reefer, I am very
sensitive to that. In the sixties, you know we
all had our share. I reached a point where one
puff put me on the astral plain, worse than acid.
I've not gone near that stuff for decades.
My back hurts now
from sitting in this recliner. It's worse in bed,
because it's too uncomfortable getting perfectly flat
with this leg. So anyway, I'm just sharing.
I'm fairly well convinced there is nothing that
can be done until some miracle happens or I
start to heal. I have truly tried being still,
still, still... I even iced my leg for several
hours twice yesterday and this evening.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2009 - 06:53am PT
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The wrap thing, I've tried. The doctor put a
special wrap on me, but I can't stand the pain.
It increases significantly aftr the shortest amount
of time, with the wrap on. Not going to booze
it up. Really, I'm just sounding off, as I said,
to share, and not to solicit advice. I think my
head is so full of advice I don't know what I would
do if I heard one more suggestion. But then I'm
a bit incoherent right now and probably swing
from rationality to irrationality minute to minute.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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How long has it been now Pat?
With so many problems but no fracture it sounds like some serious soft tissue disruption.
Hard to get a handle on what Dakota did to you. Didn't you say it was videotaped? Can you post it?
Four oxy don't help? Sheeet! What strength are they?
(Don't think I could even stomach that many.)
What do I know, though. I'm here in Toquer City, Utah.
We don't have all night liqueur stores like Rox does in Idaho.
"I'll take a half pint of Contreau and a fifth of Grand Marinier!
Just gimme a straw."
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Pat-
I think the bottom line advice should be to keep taking your temperature and go to the doctor immediately if you start running one. Stoically dealing with pain is one thing, getting an infection and being in danger of losing your leg is quite another.
It also would be a good idea to go back to the doctor every 10 days or so. They don't always give the same advice as time passes.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2009 - 11:21am PT
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It's been 17 days. No fever. Just merciless,
miserable pain. As for posting the fall,
it wasn't a spectacular thing, just ugly and a bit
miraculous. There is a big rock that sticks up
out of the ground, and I could easily have hit
that. Somehow I fell just at a moment
when I could drop and land between the main
boulder and that rock. Had I fallen a move
higher, from the same loose hold, it could
have been a broken back... or hit my head...
Thanks, Jan. You're usually right on and
are here.
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MH2
climber
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Patrick,
From earlier posts I got the impression that at least a couple posters with medical training are following your case.
I'm just a concerned bystander with a little OR and other hospital and medical experience.
Your leg is in danger and as you rest up you could get pneumonia.
On a brighter note:
Compartment syndromes of the thigh after blunt trauma without any fracture are rare. Most surgeons recommend operative treatment. There are different rules for compartment syndromes of the thigh in young athletes after blunt trauma compared to compartment syndromes at other locations [(1) the large volume of the quadriceps muscle, (2) its relatively elastic fascia, (3) the direct proximal contact to the hip muscles which allows extravasation of fluid out of the compartment)]. We present a case of conservative treatment of elevated intra-compartmental pressure (ICP) of the anterior thigh after blunt trauma and the follow-up until return to sport. Conservative treatment of a compartment syndrome of the thigh after blunt trauma in a young patient without fracture or vascular damage was successful without short-term sequelae. Recovery of muscle strength is delayed but return to sport is possible. Depending on the severity the diagnosis and follow-up with ICP measurements and MRI is necessary. There is a very good chance for excellent outcome without any risk of surgery. However, a long healing time is possible.
Conservative treatment of an acute compartment syndrome of the thigh
Archives of Orthopaedic and Trauma Surgery
Volume 127, Number 4, May 2007
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Pat,
WTF? To hell with the expense, you need to get serious about this and tell the doc that you want to get well right now!
So, what? Are we all going to tell the story of how Pat Ament died after a stupid bouldering accident and then didn't get adequate medical care?
C'mon man! Get in there and get this fixed.
Mark
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