WoS "confessions"--The whole truth about the "enhancements"

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Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Sep 22, 2009 - 07:38pm PT

^^^
that's rich!

see it's like this:
no new drilled holes...

bwwwwaaaaahahahahahahahahaaaaa

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Sep 22, 2009 - 07:45pm PT

So who exactly are the lame-ohs bold enough to shite on another's rope and criticize the valley visitors, but too COWARD to publicly 'fess up about it 25 years later?

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111666

No shít...

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 07:54pm PT

Matt, I used to try to look through your posts to see if there was anything worthwhile there. At this point I'm just ignoring you.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Sep 22, 2009 - 08:00pm PT

Never mind the SA - I would pay a princely sum to see the shitters outed on this forum...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 22, 2009 - 08:14pm PT

"Maybe we could offer inducements to the SA.

There was already cases of beer and wine on the table, now $1,000. I'll pony up another $250 on top of that.

dogtown

Gym climber

JackAssVille, Wyoming

Sep 22, 2009 - 08:34pm PT

I'm not joking. If it was done once it could be done twice. So the question remains twenty five years later why has it not? Number one its not a route. (BS) Number two It’s a political nightmare. Number three. Is a political nightmare and the route is HARD as hell, and scary. Number four the route takes to much time and is political nightmare and the route is HARD as hell, and scary. Hey, the sh#t is intimidating, big falls off hooks like this.

1000 bucks.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 22, 2009 - 09:03pm PT

I checked about 15 WoS threads back and at least Werner and I put up a case of beer each. So we're up to at least two cases of beer (I believe there were more...) and $1250.

Mark and Richard - what did you weigh back then? If that matters then it probably rules out almost everyone posting here from the SA challenge - probably have to recruit someone young, skinny, and ignorant as we all used to be. Surely C4 still has some folks in it that are young, thirsty, and broke.

MSmith

Big Wall climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 22, 2009 - 09:05pm PT

Russ,

It seems that the question of "many" keeps coming up and that silence makes it appear that I'm avoiding a problem. At least, that's what I've been told by a couple of people. I'm at the point of not furthering this thread as nothing new or productive is coming from it, but it seems that I must close up this loose end, or at least that's what I'm told.

It seems that to several of our detractors, "many" as simply a "concept" is unacceptable, that "many" needs to be quantified into a hard number in order to be valid. To this end I wrote in the Wings of Plywood thread:
Another hour in the saddle took us to the big city where we blended in with the do-it-yourselfers at a Walmart. There it was, the economy stud finder, $12.95. Before I could pick it up Richard said, "Wait up, partner. This is what we want" as he reached for the Stanley Professional Deep Probe. I protested that the Deep Probe was taking things too far. But Rich said, "Look, a probe's a probe. It doesn't matter what kind of probe we use when it comes to the Probe Count Tally. "Probe Count Tally?" I queried. Then Richard elaborated, "Look, I know this Big Sheet climbing is all new to you, but we're not just dinking around on the backside of our own barn anymore. In these parts when you publish your topo, you give a Probe Count. How deep you probed doesn't mean squat, just how many probes you made. There's a local ethic brewing to go probeless and install T-nuts instead, but many of the hardest routes like the Sheet Of Dreams were built on deep probing."

The problem is that I don't have a number to give you. At the time of WoS, my feeling was that rivets and bathooks were holes. Also, that drilled pits behind shelves and flakes were the little brother to bathooks, and cousin to the trenched head. Knocking a crystal off the back of an edge was not, and is not, a hole (for my viewpoint), nor is it some event that begs to be logged. So, by my thinking, a bathook is akin to a trenched head while knocking a crystal off the back of an edge is akin to knocking a crystal out of the back of a seam to prep a head placement. You may disagree with my thoughts on this, but surely you will agree that my view is within the range of reasonable ethics and in harmony with a significant subset of the big wall population. But how many are posting that knocking a grain out of a seam before placing a head is so bogus that any climb that employs that technique even a few times is to be shunned? Thus, the uproar over the "many" enhancements is being played out because it is thought to be the last good angle of attack, not because it stands on its own legs. But to your point, it is also why I can't quantify "many", because at the time it wasn't a big deal which burned events into my memory. Now if you'd have asked me 20 or 25 years ago, my memory would have sufficed to guess you the number that you and others seem to need. But at this point I can't, and I have no notes to fall back on. Is this ("many") not similar to how every word the President says is recorded and analyzed. Out of the tens of thousands of his words, some extreme group finds a sentence, parses it out, and claims that they have discovered the truth behind the smoke and mirrors. Bologna. So cut me some slack! I don't know what "many" means in terms of numbers. What I do know is that my conscience was clear when we rimmed-out, believing that we set a high standard and were true to that standard.

MS

drljefe/Russ-- Hey- Why don't you FA guys go do the SA? Talk about badass.
I can see the thread now: Forum Topic: WoS TR, First post: Jensen/Smith bag WoS SA. They confirm that the climbing was insanely hard, of high quality, and in the best of style.
LOL

Russ Walling

Gym climber

Poofter's Froth, Wyoming

Sep 22, 2009 - 09:37pm PT

Mark..... I don't really care about the "many"...... could be 3..... could be 300. It don't matter to me anymore. That post was like 4 years old and just a posted quote. I'm more about the 2nd ascent rant nowadays.... The word "many" just happened to be in that post. I dig what you are saying above though.....

Hell, for all I know, even 4 years ago, I may not have cared. I don't recall being one of the guys hung up on the *exact* numbers or percentages of anything, and I'm not going back through the threads to check. Somebody will probably cut and paste me to death and prove out that I was a "way into the numbers" guy and a giant liar!

Anyway, screw the actual numbers and all that crap. Even if it was one, someone on a white horse will nail you on it anyway.... I'd just produce a mocked up topo at this point with something like 17 enhanced placements clearly marked, measured, and bluprinted and post it Mountian Project along with a gear list. Then we can all just hang out and wait for a trip report.

Side note edit: I really wish you guys would find and use another term to replace "rimming out". That one has been creeping me out for close to 30 years! Probably just me though, and I'll work on that.

WBraun

climber

Sep 22, 2009 - 09:46pm PT

Rimming out .....

Hahahaha LOL

Hahahahaha Never ever heard anyone say that about topping out ....

Gene

climber

Sep 22, 2009 - 09:52pm PT

Shut up, Mr. Braun. LOL

Too freaking funny.

gm

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Sep 22, 2009 - 10:03pm PT

and with the 'rimming out' statement maybe we have come to the end of the thread?

all in favor?

dogtown

Gym climber

JackAssVille, Wyoming

Sep 22, 2009 - 10:05pm PT

Please! but the 1000 bucks still stands.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Sep 22, 2009 - 10:11pm PT

Good job leading the peace, Russ.

Just a thought for any potential second ascentionists: the 25 year old rivets will have lost most of their strength, resulting in much longer potential falls compared to the FA. Some might need replacement.

Might be something to think about when negotiating the terms for the $1250 (+ beer) prize!

Edit: Munge--> Aye!

MSmith

Big Wall climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 22, 2009 - 10:21pm PT

Russ,

I can't wear thongs. Now I can't rim-out either? What's next?

Matt

Trad climber

primordial soup

Sep 22, 2009 - 10:43pm PT

"Matt, I used to try to look through your posts to see if there was anything worthwhile there. At this point I'm just ignoring you."

you mean, you look at me on ST the same way people out there in the real world see your route?

=)

btw, you still owe me an apology, as i in fact did not misrepresent what you wrote (as you claimed), you simply miswrote.

now be a good christian, fess up, and say you're sorry already!
these grudges you always seem to carry are quite unbecoming...

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 11:03pm PT

We weighed about 155/160 pounds when we started the thing. Ahh... the good old days. Actually, I think that Mark still weighs about that. Of course he's got arthritis in his hands now that precludes serious climbing. No kidding; it's a sad thing.

Actually, the rivets were mostly zinc, with a stainless nail. There was most of a thread devoted to speculating on the state of the rivets, and when Randy, Tom, and Pete replaced them on the first two pitches, we found them to be good. We checked the pulled ones, there was no visible corrosion, and they offered good resistance. Also, we didn't use screamers, which are in common use now. So, just screamer the rivets, and you'll be in way better shape than we were.

Go, SA. I'll pony up $250.

tom woods

Gym climber

Bishop, CA

Sep 22, 2009 - 11:23pm PT

So we are agreed? Let these fellas have their route. Give back their memories of youth and let them be?

This would be good.

I got this rule, developed after years of sleepless nights and obsessing over tiny mistakes of carpentry. Money, pride are all out the door- if you can't see it, it didn't happen.

This doesn't apply to everything in life, but to the crafts, which are judged by the eye, if you can't see it, it didn't happen.

Sometimes the process is f*#ked. You know how you forced the piece in, you know that the job wasn't done right. Sometimes its because you are looking to close. Take a step back, it may look a lot better.

300 modifications or 3- guys have walked to the base, done a few pitches and can't see the problem, it can't be that bad.

Let these guys have their route. What's it cost? It didn't set a precedent. People didn't head off to glacier point to aid super slabs.

The question should not be of validity of the route, it should be of quality. Is the route a classic or an obscurity and destined to stay that way?

What the hell do I know.