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GDavis
Trad climber
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Seems I'm showing up late to the "bash bluering show."
You dudes need to chill out a bit, getting pretty personal, holy cow. Go smoke out a bit and maybe you won't give a sh!t what people say on the internet so much.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Hey man...I like Blue.
He might need a NEW hat, though.
Maybe a proper chapeau?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Captain, you ain't so bad yourself....mostly.....
Greg, WTF?, I got this, go climbing or something, dude.
Wes is being his typical self-rightious self.
I got weeds on top of my house though....then need tendin'!
I'll be back.
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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Its called conquest. Been going on for ages. First the bigger bullies with tree branch clubs would beat up other tree branch clubbing peoples...while at the same time the big stone throwers were conquering the beach dwelling pebble throwers(they put up a fight and a good one!).
A little later on someone figured out the fire thing. Now the little tree branch clubbers(the few that were left) would light their clubs on fire and attack the bigger tree club weilding bullies(who were fat, out of shape, and unprepared because they were reveling in their victories thinking themselves invincible) and the bigger tree clubbers ran into the forest and there they remained until they got their revenge with the discovery of metal tools fashioned into weapons.
Well, they sprang out of the forests one day and and slaughtered all but two of the by now self righteous lit on fire tree clubbers types(just so happens a boy and a girl survived) and there they(the little tree clubbers) remained until many years later one of the offspring of the two remaining little clubbers(yes the boy and girl eventually found about sex) mixed a little salt peter, sulfur, and charcoal together and blew himself up.
Luckily for the little tree clubber peoples, one of the 6 fingered siblings of the now blown to bits little tree clubber had watched from afar and he(the girls were cooking and cleaning) realized the potential to get even with the big tree clubbers. Preparations were made.
So under the mask of darkness the gunpowder wielding ,once overpowered and nearly extinct, little tree huggers crept into the metal weapons encampment and blew them all to kingdom come.
Meanwhile on the opposite coast a small bronzed boy( an offspring of the big stone throwers) with a gourd covered crotch was playing with sticks in the surf, and began to fashion the beginnings of a sea going vessel. These peoples would eventually become great explorers of the oceans blue.
A chance encounter with a drunken gun powder carrying non violent little tree hugger type led to an exchange of information. The seafarers now had gunpowder and transportaion to roam and pillage....And Columbus sailed the ocean blue.....
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Hey Bluering, man sounds like John REALLY hit one one here! You've been taking a beating and I give you credit, you keep coming back. I admire your ability to stand up for what you believe, I give EVERYONE here credit for standing up for their beliefs, that's one of the things that's suppose to MAKE this country so "great". You asked me two questions I believe and I answered them both directly, to the best of my ability. I haven't called you anything derogatory(I think, if I did I apologize)and I've tried to stay on subject. I would like a response from you for my own curiosity, as to why "acceptance and equality" are so unacceptable to you(if they are)? You stated in one response, and the response was to me, that I'm "skirting" the questions. You asked me two questions, I answered them both....one was acceptance of all people, which can lead to enlightenment, the other was equality for all people, which can lead to acceptance. Not trying to attack or berate you, but just looking as to why you think I'm skirting your questions. Took some time off this thread to enjoy the 4th of July and I'm sure you didn't need more crap!
By the way, I'm cool with you thinking I'm "a cool dude."
Thanks
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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This thread needs some distraction:
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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That depends. What are her qualifications?
Is she indigenous?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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How 'bout a hat?
Nevermind, forget the hat.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Ron, good man, I feel like we can prolly discuss this like two men.
My problem is that while I'd agree that the we are still shitting on the Indians, what do they require that they shouldn't be providing for themselves?
Sounds insensitive, I know.
My point is, do they wish to live as they did in the past or do they want to join the 21st century and adapt to our culture. Either way I'm cool with it, I just gots to know.
I have a feeling they want to retain their land and heritage as much as possible, and I'd be the first to support that!
But with limited funds and sad lobbying for state/fed dollars, they will continue to be hurt. Maybe they should run somebody for senate or state legislature, but that's not their way and maybe the reason that, sadly, their culture is dying.
Again I'd say that I'd rather give my tax dollars to native Americans before illegal immigrants. Interpret that as you will.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Blue wrote: But with limited funds and sad lobbying for state/fed dollars, they will continue to be hurt. Maybe they should run somebody for senate or state legislature, but that's not their way and maybe the reason that, sadly, their culture is dying.
Actually Blue the US government tried to kill it off and the indigenous people are trying to bring it back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/22/native-americans-preserve-language-america
Look up Taos Pueblo and the fierce dignity that they used to keep their culture intact and alive.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Right on Bluering, thanks for the response. I can't speak for all Indians or any minority, but what you say has merit. All minorities and majorities need to get in the 21 century. If we knew how to attain that, we'd be genius's. Like I said in a previous post, I don't dwell on the past, look to the future and how to make things better. I(I) wish that with the casino situation, is that the Indians be allowed to make their money, tax free, BUT that the money that would have gone to taxes for the US govies, still be taken out and put into a fund that could be used to educate, insure and raise the standard of living for those living on the reservations. If the reservations were truly free from government ruling, then why does the government tell the reservations what they can and can't do about everything from religion, to income? That IS NOT FAIR! I believe it is up to all minorities to pull themselves out of whatever problems they are in, even if some assistance is needed, but by doing it themselves, it WILL make them a stronger people. Allow the Indians to reattain their culture, religion, language, socialization etc., so they can then be strong and confident that they can remain in today society as an equal. Many injustices have been put on them, but plain simple fact is, those injustices cannot be made up for, in any way, so it is up to them(us) to do it for ourselves. One of the biggest hurdles I see, is that Indians have a different set of beliefs and values, generally speaking, and what matters to one ethic group might not matter to another, so there is a barrier to understanding each other. Example: most Indians believe that one should respect ALL things on earth, living or not, other cultures don't have those same beliefs so it's hard for one to understand or empathize with another.
As stated earlier, I don't dwell on the past, but I do recognize what the past has molded, and if I knew the answers, then I'm in the wrong business. but I do wholeheartedly believe that we as a whole people(all races) NEED to be more tolerant,understanding and accepting of each other and each other beliefs in order for things to work. Keep your beliefs, stand up for them, but also, understand, listen and be acceptable of other people as well.
Peace Bluering!
Ron
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Ron wrote: As stated earlier, I don't dwell on the past...
Dwelling and not understanding/accepting are two different things.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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True Bob, but perhaps if we ALL understood more and accepted more, we wouldn't have to dwell. I think I'm on yer side on this one! Good for John to have posted this topic(even though it's OT)controversy, brings conversation, conversation can lead to education, education can lead to understanding, etc. etc. etc.!
Peace
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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You can't understand where to go if you don't know where you've been, Ron. There's a difference between "dwelling on the past" and "understanding the issue." This isn't about trying to get people to feel guilty.
The tribes AREN'T totally free of government ruling. They are quasi-sovereign states. The federal government has also been charged with managing billions of dollars of tribal funds, much of which has been skimmed off of, mismanaged and misdirected over the last century.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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"My problem is that while I'd agree that the we are still shitting on the Indians, what do they require that they shouldn't be providing for themselves?
Sounds insensitive, I know.
My point is, do they wish to live as they did in the past or do they want to join the 21st century and adapt to our culture. Either way I'm cool with it, I just gots to know."
A serious issue right now is that the "American way of life" prevents tribes from living their way of life. Excessive water drawing in the southwest and continental west is reducing groundwater to a point where rural Native communities can't get water. And let's not mention all the pollutants we put into our own rivers and soil...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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HDesertDJ, I stated that the Indians ARE NOT FREE of government ruling, I get it.... I'm trying to converse with Blue on this matter as it seems to be nothing but a schitting match between everyone and he was asking me direct questions as to what I thought, he and I seem to be making some headway. I don't agree with a lot of what's being said here, but that's neither here nor there. It seems like most commenting on this matter only want their views to be heard and not a lot of willingness to listen to others.....but that's my own opinion. Bluering asked me questions, I answered him, he responded to me, he and I are CONVERSING, trying to WORK through this. Hope I haven't offended you or anyone else here, but that's why I'm trying to stick with Blue (and John) on the thread.
Peace
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I(I) wish that with the casino situation, is that the Indians be allowed to make their money, tax free, BUT that the money that would have gone to taxes for the US govies, still be taken out and put into a fund that could be used to educate, insure and raise the standard of living for those living on the reservations.
Me too. I agree.
I look at the whole casino scam as a way to throw a monetary bone to 'natives' to get them to shut up. The tribal 'elders' get the bone and everyone else gets the tiny scraps. It ain't right.
Kinda like Al Sharpton speaking for all black people, yeah, whatever. Everyone knows he's doing his thing for himself. He collects money, spouts off a bunch of garbage about oppression, and goes back to his nice house.
What I find disturbing is the lack of true leadership in the native community. Maybe it's inherint in their culture to not join the political fracass. Can't blame 'em.
That brings me back to what they really strive for as a community and culture. Is it to be left alone to live as they always have, or to have a chance at living the 'new life' in the newer world of technology and what have you...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I should point out also that I think it's a shame to lose native American culture. It's NATIVE culture and should be encouraged to thrive and be perserved.
I think I know what y'all are talking about, just talking from 2 different directions.
I do stick by my revolvers though on spending 'illegal immigrant' cash on stuff like this though...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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"Maybe it's inherent in their culture not to join the political fracass. I can't blame em" Kinda funny Bluering...I'm not politically active, when I was very young I made a promise to my grandmother, who is now dead, not to participate, hope to keep that promise in her honor. Can't say I'm right or wrong for that, but I know I made a promise to her, so I should honor that. It would be nice if the Indians had a more centralized political focus,(would it work for them) but man where do we start there??? Other minority groups have leadership within their groups to a certain extent. I still think social issues need to be worked out before centralizing can happen though.
Peace
Maybe someday if I believe in something politically strong enough I can talk with her and see if she'll let me break our promise.
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