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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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Well it's been a wonderful and fun filled weekend, so maybe I'm just a bit "loose" brained right now, but looking up the actual meaning of atheism in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary I found this ...." godless, ungodliness, wickedness, a disbelief in the existence of deity, the doctrine that there is no deity.
So what this is saying to me is that there is no proof there is no god. What yo have is a dis belief instead of a belief. You have doctrines jess like people of faith....interesting.
Consider the invisible world. Wind, atoms, molecules.....yo believe in these I suspect. Lynnie believes there is more to the invisible world....alot more. Cheers on a great Sunday Eve to all !
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:49am PT
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Lynne, you'll never understand these people.
Nice to hear you had a good time, though, I was partner deficient this weekend. Get er done!!!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:00am PT
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Well, I'd like to understand or at least be on the same common ground of understanding, Bluering. Then we can dialogue, perhaps learning a bit more where each of us all are coming from, the dynamic, and build from there.
I confess, I did not climb this weekend. I shot every rifle, pistol, shotgun and semi automatic available and then the next day watched the tennis pros battle at Indian Wells. (Think I saw Charles Cole and his great family sitting nearby).
Yo Bro, gotta cross train the body and brain, right ? :DD lynnie
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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I hear ya Lynne...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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Give a big howdy to John for me, bluey !!
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apogee
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:15am PT
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So, Lynne, that's how Merriam Webster defined 'Atheism'? Well, I guess a definition depends on who you ask, and what you want to believe. Here's 3-4 other definitions that don't seem to include any of the 'wickedness' descriptions that Merriam-Webster provided:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
a⋅the⋅ism /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1580–90; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ism
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
a·the·ism (ā'thē-ĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dhēs- in Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Atheism
A"the*ism\, n. [Cf. F. ath['e]isme. See Atheist.]
1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall.
Atheism and pantheism are often wrongly confounded. --Shipley.
2. Godlessness.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
Cite This Source
Language Translation for : atheism
Spanish: ateísmo, German: der Atheismus,
Japanese: 無神論
More Translations »atheism
noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God [ant: theism]
2. a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Cite This Source
atheism [(ay-thee-iz-uhm)]
Denial that there is a God. (Compare agnosticism.)
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:18am PT
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Lynne, John is sleeping with Mom....he's adorable, next year you guys will meet. We may even climb something together.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:24am PT
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noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God [ant: theism]
2. a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
So, are you guys the people who just won't cross sides and just won't take the hand reaching out?
You guys are the wandering ghosts. The ones who wont choose,
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:31am PT
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Hi apogee,
Hey, it's not what I Want to believe....last time I looked Merriam-Web. was considered pretty right on. :)
Would like people to address these issues that were just posted. ....."Atheism is a doctrine or belief that there is no God...dis belief or denial, lack of belief there is no God or gods. "
As I said, yo say lynnie has no proof of her God and the definition of what atheism is says it has no proof there is no God/god. Hmmmmmm, but we be havin' peace and joy in the challenges of life, hope so for all in these rough days....fo, sure. lynnie
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apogee
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:34am PT
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"You guys are the wandering ghosts. The ones who wont choose,"
I think that would be an agnostic. Atheists are pretty much settled on the fact that there is no God or higher power...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 03:00am PT
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apogee, the reason I quoted the dictionary is because it says atheists have no proof there is no god/God.
You say, "Atheists are pretty much settled on the FACT that there is no God or higher power."
Definition for the word FACT "the quality of being actual; a thing done; actuality..hinges on EVIDENCE...an actual occurrence, something that has actual existence."
In reality atheists cannot prove there is no God/god. They have no facts that there is no God/god. Jess asking and enjoying the debate. I always appreciate yo imput, Apogee. lrl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:55pm PT
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I can understand how someone might throw out the Baby and the Bathwater and be relieved to be free of that stinky bathwater.
Traditional religions (like traditional politics and traditional families) are coated with generations of human psychic and emotional detritus.
Yet there is a Light. You can call it Love when that Love is not conditional like an investment.
Right now, after having spent over a month focused on nurturing that Light during my winter retreat to recharge, that Light is shining in my heart so sweetly that not believing in it is laughable.
No worries, it doesn't need our belief.
It's only when your own life seems dim, you might seek to get a candle lit. Remember this post and reach within to your Light.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:56pm PT
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Years upon years of historical distortions have hidden the original truth.
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apogee
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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"Atheists are pretty much settled on the FACT....
In reality atheists cannot prove there is no God/god."
My inadvertent use of the word 'fact' seems to have pushed a button. Didn't really mean to do that. A better way to put it: Atheists are pretty much of the belief that there is no god.
To your point, Lynne, your statement applies to atheists, agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, (fill in the blank). No-one can prove or disprove if there is a God or higher power. So where does that leave us? With each other, trying to live respectfully of each other's beliefs, and not shoving them down the throats of others at the point of a sword or bayonet. Many (most?) religions seem to have had a lot of trouble doing that throughout history.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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apogee: not sure most religions have tried to force others to convert, it's just that the religions that DID force others to convert are the ones that got lots of followers, for obvious reasons :)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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appreciate your points, All. Great way to start the day, thinking....now off to work. Peace and Joy on a Monday, lrl
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jstan
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Atheists see no evidence for the existence of any deity and so are comfortable with there being none. Just as they are comfortable with accepting that there is no tooth fairy at least until such time as there is convincing evidence to the contrary. Were such proof to appear at a future time, one might expect these people to change what they accept as being true. Since the presence of data informs their position, a change in the status of the data would be expected to change their position. Change is possible.
Those who believe a deity of one sort or another in fact exists often point to ancient stories out of oral history as to “miracles” that some deity is assumed to have brought about. If not by the deity themselves then by someone asserted by someone to be a messenger for that deity. A miracle is an event which is by definition something that is not expected based upon all the rest of what we know about the real world. For all we know, five hundred years from now some editorial from today’s Washington Times could be held up as a miracle. Anyone disinclined to accept such assertions is disinclined to accept that positive data proving that a deity of any kind actually exists. This places those accepting the existence of one or more deities in a bind. By accepting as fact something for which there is no generally accepted supporting data, they have made their “facts” entirely independent of data and they are unable to discuss logically the basis for their convictions. If no data is required for their deity, certainly not an insubstantial matter, one can only wonder what more will they accept provided only there is no data?
Their position is not open to change based upon anything that is readily accepted by all as a reflection of the world as a whole.
Don’t get me wrong. One thing people should have is the freedom to choose such things for themselves. Of course if you believe in the tooth fairy those who don’t believe in the tooth fairy will be convinced the believers may be in for a disappointment. But that is their right to feel this way.
The one thing that people should not have is the power to punish those who do not believe as they do. Unfortunately such has often been encountered in history associated with those who believe in one or more deities. History and indeed the present are rife with such.
I hate to say it. But there it is. Deities do not pass the smell test. Consider if you will. Focus on the Family does not have to pay its corporate taxes because it has legally agreed not to involve itself in matters of public governance – but then does exactly that. To my knowledge nowhere in Focus on the Families bible is there a commandment saying if you simply get away with taking your neighbor’s wife, it is then OK. If their bible did indeed say this, that organization at the least, could claim integrity.
The question we all have to face is this. Are we willing to take on faith the direction of someone, and their instructions as to what we may and may not do, who has not got a claim even to integrity?
The real problem here and the reason we have all these discussions – is because something somewhere does not pass the smell test.
It may simply be that we are unable to separate the religious from the religionists. Since they have so much at stake you would expect the religious to be working diligently and visibly to correct this.
They are not.
It is almost as though – they are not taking their bibles to heart.
EDIT:
No. The absence of evidence means you have no data on which to base your belief that a Santa exists.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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Here's the thing John...
Even if every honest, well meaning religionist on the planet were too miles off base in knowing what is "Divine", it would not be any evidence or refutation of the existence of divine.
You could gather a stadium of 6 years old kids into a great council to debate whether there is "Sex" or not, and what it means. If they came up with a pile of non-sense, it would reflect little on sex and more on the disparity in the dimensions of experience required to address the issue.
The preponderance of fools proves or disproves nothing except human folly, which dogs science and religion in different ways.
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
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Karl:
"Even if every honest, well meaning religionist on the planet were too miles off base in knowing what is "Divine", it would not be any evidence or refutation of the existence of divine. "
I do not believe I claimed my disregard for religionists played any role whatsoever in my own decision regarding deities.
However, the failure of religionists to follow the simple and common rules allowing relations between people to be kept civil informs me that I quite probably have no real information as to what these people are trying to accomplish - no matter what they claim.
That said, the failure of religious people who do have integrity, to try and deal with misuses of their beliefs - leaves me confounded. There are many such people and they are silent.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Mar 16, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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i've already tried to say this like 6 times, and should leave it at that. but self control has never been one of my strong points.
faith is the realm of our best guess as to that which we cannot truly know, truly "touch". the theists cannot prove God, nor can the aethiests prove not-God. if either could, we'd all be quick of the same faith -- or better put -- not faith but of the same knowledge.
if i pull a quarter out of my pocket and let it go, will it hit the ground? that's knowledge. yet a very different domain than faith.
this is not to demean any sincere form of faith. many of those most dear to me are theists for whom their beliefs are as real and powerful and immediate to them as their next breath, as oxygen. and many of them are wickedly smart, profoundly experienced, and very wise souls. they certainly remind me where i fit in the food chain.
others very dear to me are atheists for whom their beliefs are as also real immediate to them as their next breath. and they too are wickedly smart, profundly experienced, and very wise souls. they also make me look like the chipmunk i am in the great scheme of things.
~~~
i still say that this is the very description of faith -- trying to discern what is in the end parsecs beyond what we small mammals can point to, whatwe can 'touch,' what we can know.
i think all those who make a heartfelt and profound effort to find their way -- then do the work to live with the results --deserve respect. period. give them their space, even if you disagree with them. for none of use can truly know. that's why they call it "faith" no? if this stuff was actually knowable, we’d all be immediately on the same page.
~~~
while following this thread it has dawned on me that with nearly 7 billion souls now alive, and all trying to guess right, at least a couple of them have, through the shere chance of big number theory, guessed entirely right. but given the nature of the question, even they are not at present any more sure of that guess -- the most important guess they will ever make -- then the rest of us.
for none of us truly "know" what is by definition the "unknowable.” we guess. a profoundly serious guess, the one that perhaps defines us more than anything. and then -- those who come to realize how prfound and essential this guess is -- actually bet their lives on it -- and then some. we bet our lives and live accordingly.
i think we all need to respect that. some moments after our last heart beat we will finally "know." in the meantime we cannot.
the absolute best text on this is 'Moby Dick' it is not a book about whaling and it is certainly not a children's story. Ahab seduced that petri dish of broken faiths with the idea that faith was at best an uncomfortable and life long wrestling match that is tough, and uncomfortable, and unsure. Ahab, in agony with a ripped up leg gave up on that, instead he preached knowledge.
maybe, after that last heartbeat, after what Ahab called "Punching through the pasteboard mask" (pasteboard was in his day essentially drywall. he saw the monster white whale as no more than a drywall barrier between this confounding world and what was really happening, what could be known). And Ahab convinced those broken souls that if only they punched through that drywall, in that moment that would actually _know_. and in that instant, faith would beome obsolete.
perhaps. but in the meantime, faith is all we got.
only years after i finished my disseration (which was on faith, not massive angry whales) that i realized that Ahab, if nothing else, delivered on his promise. for he killed them all. and in that moment, they 'knew' what we still breathing cannot know. (ok, all except for Ishmael -- but that was a simply a neccessary narrative trope).
~~~
well, maybe those few among us who guess just right will mock the sh!t out of the rest of us who didn't. but i rather doubt that. if for no other reason than in my faith (my best guess) if there is a truly omniscient and compassionate God, He/She/They would surely be bigger than our tiny mammal 'neener-neener' silliness and simply wouldn't tolerate such junior high crap.
~~~
ok, maybe the 7th time is the charm. ah, but what little i can comprehend of humanity all but assures me that won't happen.
so go at it, those of you so certain you know the unknowable -- mock and slap the crap out of those who don’t agree with your best guess. that and bank that you are one of the handful of the 7 billion now also guessing who accidently guessed just right.
yeah, i’m way confident that this 7th attempt to make this small point will be the charm... (though the Gnostics hade huge faith in the number 7, something to do with the 7 known planets, way BITD)
sheesh...
^,,^
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