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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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There is no existence without a couple dead cats, just layin' there, lookin' forlorn.
Ha.
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MikeL
climber
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Ugh, nothing can be proved. At best one can only falsify a theory (and hardly anyone cares about that except people who live by the scientific method).
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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I live by the "Hope for things to work out" Method.
It's easier when I can find 2 or 3 cats though.
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WBraun
climber
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God can never be a theory.
God can be proven at any time eternally.
He exists proof positive.
He can never ever be proven to not exist.
Challenging rascals will always be left in the dark ......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Del wrote
"We're discussing things that cannot be seen, heard, or measured. In the case of reincarnation, after someone dies we don't who they'll come back as, when they'll come back, where it will happen, or even if. There's no way to test it, no way to falsify it."
Depends. You know how they picked the Dalai Lama when he was just a rural village kid of tiny age? They bring a big selection of possessions from the past Dalai Lama's collection, along with similar items, some new and shiny, and some just different. The kid has to pick which ones were his in a past life. They picked some hick Tibetan Kid from the sticks and he grew up to win the Nobel Peace prize.
Worth a thought anyway.
and
"Otherwise why not buy into astrology or telekinesis? There are plenty of proponents out there for these ideas. Uri Geller bent a lot of spoons. "
Lots of inadequate astrologers out there, just as the brain surgeons of the 19th century didn't do so well either, but just to give you one tiny example.
My girlfriend walks into the door of an Astrologer in rural India and she doesn't even give him her legal name, just place of birth and date-time. He nails all kinds of details of her life, some so secret that she has only told a few people in her life. To be mundane, he told her exactly how many siblings she had and the total number of their kids combined...8.
She said "you're wrong, there were only 7"
He said, "I'm right, one died"
She remembered "oh Yeah, One did die"
See what I mean? Now I'm either a liar, or he's in league with the Devil, or folks just block this out of their minds as something that contradicts their worldview. (course it was supposedly astrologers who figured out how to find Jesus when he was born, ever look at the stars in the sky and figure out which one was over Chicago?)
The people who have direct experience that contradicts the mass experience have learned to take a back seat and shut up over the generations.
I just thought I'd poke at the fire to give a better chance to those starting to question both the traditional stasis of religion and the overly materialist view of science.
We have to power to stay locked up in our personal world view but folks should at least get it through their head that, even if you only believe science, that the world is NOT as you see it.
Peace
Karl
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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"HOW COULD" GOD be real? Surely if you have something that IS, you can consider HOW is?
How bout as an imaginary friend. All that we know to be "real" are faith and belief in supernatural superpals of various description. The "how" is wishful thinking, the willful suspension of disbelief, usually forin exchange for some emotional payoff. Purple unicorns with little lasers in their eyes, who like to drink Darjeeling tea and eat asbestos wool could be real too. Let's investigate those possibilities, while we're at it.
If we assume ALL those who have seen and spoke to GOD (or GODS), a large number of people of whom many appear to be reasonable and serious, and have reported their experiences truthfully as they claim, HOW could ALL of them be correct?
Easy, if they're all just promoting the image their mutually agreed upon imaginary friends, they can all be right, within the context of their cult. That is, for themselves and anyone they can persuade, delude, or threaten into submission to their fantasy.
Find the HOW (the commonality) and you might find the reality hidden just out of sight.
The Bible says pretty clearly that to look at GOD is not such a good idea. Probably because people used to go blind from staring at the sun. Face it, our ancestors were a bunch of idiots in serious need of guidance, and so the more clever among them made up elaborate stories and myths to keep everyone content and more or less in line.
God is also a great excuse for a guilty conscience, in many cases.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Del wrote
"I would love to have my mind expanded by demonstrations of the supernatural. It would have a profound effect on me, truely it would. But I am only going to be here another few decades (at best). If this is going to happen will it come in time?
If not, see you next lifetime."
Jesus said "seek and you will find" There is kind of a spiritual law that thing go in such a way that we are insulated from being confronted with spiritual reality unless we clearly are open to experiencing it.
Sounds culty but the same could be said for Love. Lots of folks say they want to experience lots of love but close their hearts, protect their feelings and keep everybody at a distance.
So just do this, clearly and respectfully (best repeatedly) expressed to God, the universe, the power that IS (whatever you want to call it) that you want it's Truth revealed to you, and then just go on with life with an openness to notice if you get an answer in some form (don't expect this will happen in some predetermined way or what it will feel or look like)
Something will happen if you are sincere.
Peace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Say Karl, Thanks for making it clearer. I misread. : )
So, What if.....? Lynnie was raised a Muslim etc....
Well I thought about it and almost responded to the post with a giant foray of verbiage. Then I remembered the "what if" words in the post...kinda like "but what if".
One can always theorize... "Well what about this, what about that" ad infinitum really.
All speculation aside because it is just that, speculation. Truly One can only speak truthfully and from the heart about what one knows and is real in their own heart and life.
The poster must have missed the part in one of my last posts that says, "Draw near to God and He WILL draw near to you." It's in His Bible and It applies to Muslims, Hindus, Wasps, Buddahists, and any other gig man has created under the sun. God is and he loves and he wants to know you and love you.
Just like any relationship .... it takes two who move toward one another and love each other.
Joy....and take time to Love those in yo own Life. Lynne
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MikeL
climber
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Dr. F said, "So I'm basically searching for him [God]."
Oh, come on now, Dr. F. I think you're not being really honest. It's not like you really want to find God. You're making a joke with us.
Ken Wilber said that if anyone really wanted the proof for spirituality, all it took was a committed effort to "perform the injunction." In spiritual terms, that meant to practice a serious form of spirituality for a little while and see what showed up. For example, start meditating using a spiritual practice where YOU COMMIT your efforts and mind to it. Wilber said in a just a few years' time, you'd have your answer one way or the other.
Even the Shakamuni Buddha said not to believe what He said. He suggested that everyone find out for themselves what truth was.
It took a honest effort.
Maybe taking part in an argument is just an opportunity to generate a drama or a story that a person can be a part of.
Sure, and that's really ok, too.
But if you really are interested and really want to know--you know what to do.
On the other hand, if you simply enjoy the argument, then I guess one can have fun here, too.
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MikeL
climber
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Rokjox:
:-) !!! Good on ya for that last one. I think you are exposing a paradox. I refer you to Socrates.
Socrates was a supreme ironist who consistently said what he didn't mean in order to convey his meaning (i.e., the so-called Socratic Method). Asking questions means to drive people to a wisdom of direct insight and experience that gave rise to knowledge and rules of conduct. Socrates seems to have been more of a religious teacher, and he engineered direct apprehensions rather than understandings by words, logic, etc. That the Greeks called, "noesis" or "just getting it." In the end, it's all noesis; all methods lead to noesis.
At the highest level, a noesis of noesis occurs. That is: we may be able to know through rational processes, but we cannnot reason without having an idea of what counts as truth. For that, we must consult a vision. There's the paradox: to know what's reasonable we must know what counts as the truth to know if we have reasoned correctly.
No matter what you think the Good and the Beautiful and the Truth is, all three purportedly point to the same thing. But we must know these things first before we can know anything else--and we know them differently than we know anything else. (Sound circular?) But the three are just labels and powererless without direct experiences to ground them. This is what Socrates' tactics (his incessant questioning) meant to evoke.
What is important is the vision itself. All the rest is secondary.
Explanation is NOT the point; explanation is only the pointer. As Wittgenstein said, "once you have climbed the ladder, you can kick it away."
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MikeL
climber
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Dr. F:
" . . .but a large group of 100s of scientists working on a problem can make progress on the issue and come up with a working theory if you accept it or not."
"And these scientists have come to the same conclusion - God is a man made illusion, and does not exist, using all the possible to tools and logical reasoning that exists at this time. "
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Er, well, . . . maybe, I guess. (How noncommittal and friendly can I be?)
I used to be a practicing scientist. I have a doctorate, was a tenure track person in a few universities here, in the UK, and in Canada, and I have some publications. If I remember the scientific approach properly, one can only falsify theories, not prove them. Theories or facts (which are theory-laden) get "accepted" often quantitatively through statistical means using traditional scientific methodologies.
Since the early 1900s, however, other methods of inquiry have arisen legitimately that are much more qualitative and question the authority of researchers and traditional methods (e.g., ethnomethodology, hermenuetics, critical theory, post-structuralism, postmodernism, and various approaches that examine language, gender, and power in the Academy itself).
None of these approaches (traditional or new) can prove that you or your ideas are wrong, but they significantly undermine your ability to claim with certainty that you are right. Your ideas and views are yours, but they don't have to be other people's. Both you and another person can have different views, and both those views can be valid. (Even quantum mechanics says that.)
Buddhists and some others have been arguing the same idea for a couple of thousand years. They call it the non-dual or the Tetralema: The non-dual means not two, but still not the same; not existent, nor non-existent, not both existent and non-existent, not neither existence nor non-existence. Real nature is beyond any description, beyond any coceptualization, beyond any duality, beyond space and time. It cannot be explained; it has to be seen by directly seeing the real nature of our own mind.
Realism, idealism, nihilism, dualism, monism, are all extremes.
It's an unbelievably amazing world for us. Any attempt to slice and dice it (via science, religion, labels, categorizations, concepts, etc.) are all highly susceptible to error.
Humbly,
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WBraun
climber
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Within the heart of every living entity is the soul (atma) the real you along with Paramatma, God.
So the lord is also in the heart of every living entity along side as Paramatma.
But we are not God. Sometimes the Mayavadi philosophers, they do not distinguish between atma and Paramatma.
Very dangerous.
The Mayavadi philosophers make the erroneous distinction that when we become liberated we become god again.
Mayavadi philosophers are more dangerous than anyone. Better to remain an atheist than succumb to such nonsense.
The Mayavadi philosophy was preached by Sripada Sankaracarya under orders from the Supreme Lord because a certain class of men desired such nonsense. In the end Sripada Sankaracarya preached against that very philosophy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu further clarified the Mayavadi philosophers mistakes and defeated their bogus philosophy in a very famous debate.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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From one point of view, there is no doubt that an ultimate reality exists, it's just a matter of its nature.
Think about it. Science is basically telling us that EVERYTHING is composed of the same vibrating energy that can be seen as waves or particles.
So this EVERYTHING ENERGY becomes us, this planet, and the whole universe and it's basically the same energy. Einstein felt he was on the brink of a unified field theory.
So it not a matter of whether there is an overarching Reality, just what it's like and how conscious it is.
It's worth noting that we are made of that energy and we are conscious and that consciousness is ALL we REALLY know. We know we are conscious, but could conceivably be confused about all else.
I disagree with Werner on the importance on belief in any dogma. Fact is, the Nature of something so much greater than our individual personalities, and so beyond the comprehension of the human mind, that any conception of God, dual, semi-non-dual (Vashistadvaita) or non-dual, is bound to be a pale approximation. I seriously doubt God gives a crap what we think anymore than we care how approximately inaccurate our 2 year old's ideas of us are.
The quality of our hearts and peace of mind are what allows divine communion with that which is beyond our comprehension whether you are a Buddhist or a Krishna, or a Christian. People just like to buy into the teachings of their particular tradition and substitute devotion to ideas to devotion to the Spirit itself,
PEace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Say Karl, in your last post yo wrote, " the quality of our hearts and the peace of mind are what allows divine communion..."
Ok, the quality of our hearts....what does that phrase look like to you ? To me it pencils out to be... a persons heart that loves god and wants to communicate with him.
Real peace of heart, soul, mind and spirit does open the gate to hear from the father.IMHO, and I have experienced this sometimes.
Finally, "divine communion". How does that look to you ? To me it goes along with the Bible. John 10 talks about the sheep hearing the shepherds voice. Very Cool and incredible that we can hear his voice.
Beautiful Eve to all.
Edit: Have met many not having a great new Year. Hang in there all. If yo having a great New Year encourage others. If yo not, I encourage you to have patience and perserverance. Keep looking up.
Peace and Joy, Lynne
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Perhaps this is slightly off-topic for an "agnostics" thread. Sorry. It just that when Lynnie asks, I feel respectful to reply.
Lynnie writes
"Say Karl, in your last post yo wrote, " the quality of our hearts and the peace of mind are what allows divine communion..."
Ok, the quality of our hearts....what does that phrase look like to you ? To me it pencils out to be... a persons heart that loves god and wants to communicate with him. "
It's far fetched to think of Loving God until you have a taste of that Spirit. Until then, you are only attaching to the "Idea" of God. Perhaps an inking is there and that brings Love.
But quality of Heart brings Love all around, to everyone. The clearer the Heart, the more you see the goodness within everyone. Like Jesus said, "How you treat the least among you is how you are treating me."
Still, we all have our individual filter which interprets spiritual inspiration.
"Real peace of heart, soul, mind and spirit does open the gate to hear from the father.IMHO, and I have experienced this sometimes.
Finally, "divine communion". How does that look to you ? To me it goes along with the Bible. John 10 talks about the sheep hearing the shepherds voice. Very Cool and incredible that we can hear his voice."
Communion differs according to individual openness and preference. Some people have visions, other direct knowings that emerge from within, and others experience a deep sense of BEING. Peace, Calm. Some have a dialog in which they listen silently for an intuitive answer.
Of course, it's good to beware of sneaking our selfish and limited thoughts into our perceptions of inspiration. We are always trying to believe what we want to believe.
The deeper you search yourself for spiritual inspiration, the more clearly the psyche and it's games reveal themselves to you. When we remove the obstacles of fear and mistaken identity, the Spirit is there closer than your skin.
That's what I've seen anyway. I imagine if 11 people watched a comet streak across the sky, they would appreciate it in their own way.
Peace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Thank you Karl! Good stuff for the mind, heart and soul to ponder.
If I drifted I am sorry to all. Just seemed to be meaningful. I will let this all sink in and say howdy tomorrow. Peace and Guten Abent Taco. Lynne
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