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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
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"Doug, try to state you points more clearly to limit the 'chatter' on these threads. "
What ever blue.
If you can not see the point of my crap... you are up to your ears in the real stuff.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Dec 29, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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"but Israel was established by the world community, given the right to exist"
Which could be read as "land was stolen from other people in order to create the country of Israel..." It's no wonder that it lead to:
"threatened violently by its neighbors (except, of course, Lebanon!), and attacked with illegal deadly force continually."
Most people in the Arab nations see Israel's sheer existence as the *illegal* part of the whole equation and their "deadly force" as simply the only way to remove intruders from their land.
Don't even get me started on what a f*#king joke/farce the U.N. is...
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Dec 29, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Dec 29, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
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hahaha
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Dec 29, 2008 - 03:19pm PT
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one Israeli dead and 300+- Palestinians dead seems like a tragic over reaction; except I heard elections are coming soon and that Israel had this attack planned for quite a while. Israel and Palestine have proven they can't solve the problem Israel needs to back off and have the UN create a buffer zone and an independent state for Palestine that has good water supplies. The United States should demand it and if Israel had any sense they should demand it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
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Skip wrote,
"That's about all you wacko's on the left need to know.
Except killing lots of people,
Bulldozing homes of innocent people,
Beating up old women ( done by the settlers )
turning off the water supplies,
starving the population.
Sniping kids
Does nothing to stop the rockets.
.................
Blue wrote,
"Hamas was elected in a democratic manner by the people. It is a legit gov't entity that condones mortars and rocket-fire against Israel, sometimes indirectly"
George Bush was elected in a democratic manner by the people. He is the "legit" government entity who condones torture..............
................
My guess is the after Christmas angst has put things out of whack. I hope everyone has a better new Years.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:33pm PT
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I have an idea. Everyone in the world should give back territory that they or their ancestors ripped off from the previous inhabitants. Then those people should pass on back what they just received to those on back down the line etc. etc. etc. It doesn't matter in the least when it happened; there was an injustice; there were victims, and those terrible injustices should be rectified. Now there's a solution that should satisfy those who believe that Israel has committed a horrible atrocity here. Okay, lets get with it; everyone get packing. This is going to take some time and be somewhat inconvenient, but proper redress is in order. Oh, let's turn this problem over to the UN. They have a history of being quite efficient and fair.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
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What an absurd out of focus comment Woody quit masturbating all over yourself.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:40pm PT
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Bam-Bam, I don't see myself bashing anybody else's religion. In my heart, they are all my religions.
Wanna know who was a big basher of the Religion he practiced. Jesus himself. It's important to keep people thinking about how we get blind in our actions and it happens in politics and religion and relationships and every other facet of our lives where we're tempted to see others as wrong and limited but not question ourselves.
So I don't feel I'm bashing. I have made a huge study of many religions and so if people make statements are clearly fabricated and not supported by the religions themselves, it only serves the practice of those religions for people to face the truth.
It was the priests and the fundamentalists that Jesus criticized most in his sermons, not the dirtbags and losers.
So it's fair, since there has been so much mudslinging against the Palestinians in this thread, even dating back to WW2, to note a few things, such as Christian and Christian countries have killed WAY WAY more Jews than all of Islam combined over the centuries and that's even if you take Hilter and Germany out of the equation.
I notice the response isn't "mistakes were made by our brothers in the past and we must insure that they don't happen again" but is instead "You are hateful and bashing us. Stop and lets continue insisting that it's OK to collectively punish the Palestinian people because among them are terrorists that just can't accept their land being settled and continually confiscated year after year"
If all that upsets you, it's natural that we can condone things like what Woody is saying, which is basically, Let's do a Hitler routine on the Palestinians and put the survivors on reservations"
I have to say, that thinking seems more deserving of moral condemnation of me just pointing out real facts that nobody seems the least bit prepared to refute.
If I'm telling the truth, shouldn't we look at what might be just instead of choosing one dirty side or another?
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
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Phil, reference the post a ways back.
I was speaking old school, talking about your cagoule.sp?
This thread needs some damn drift!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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Woody wrote
"I have an idea. Everyone in the world should give back territory that they or their ancestors ripped off from the previous inhabitants. Then those people should pass on back what they just received to those on back down the line etc. etc. etc. It doesn't matter in the least when it happened; there was an injustice; there were victims, and those terrible injustices should be rectified. Now there's a solution that should satisfy those who believe that Israel has committed a horrible atrocity here. Okay, lets get with it; everyone get packing. This is going to take some time and be somewhat inconvenient, but proper redress is in order. Oh, let's turn this problem over to the UN. They have a history of being quite efficient and fair."
BTW, this wasn't the post I referenced in my post above.
problem is Woody, to be civilized humans at long last, we have to put a stop to war as a means of gaining territory. That's why the world rolled back Saddam in Kuwait isn't it?
Or are you prepared to continue to go along with "Might makes Right?"
I'd think twice about it as our economy is starting to suck wind, the Chinese have trillions in the bank, and the Islamic world is destined for big wealth and power as oil will get super expensive as it eventually becomes scarce. With all that in mind, I'd agree with PP that the Israel-Palestine situation would go alot better if Israel would allow UN peacekeeper in and international watchers.
Philo has a point as well. Why won't Israel specify it's borders or constitution? Trust those who have really studied this, it's all a smokescreen to get as much land with as few Palestinians as possible Not all Israelis support this, but they are locked into this political situation with illegal settlers holding too much sway.
Thus, if the Palestinians kept up a truce, as has happened many times, the Israelis find excuses to provoke the situation until something happens and then escalate from there. Sadly, they don't want real peace yet because they need conflict to continue to take land, settle, and push the Palestinians out.
It doesn't have to be that way. The international community could designate borders, enforce compliance with sanctions, and cut the BS on both sides, but the US stands in the way.
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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345 Gazans dead and 1450 wounded so far all to retaliate for one killed Israeli. Seems fair and balanced to me. Surely there was no collateral damage either since everyone knows the are all terrorists or worse.
When does the ground offensive start? I'll make smores.
Oh yeah Survival Cagoule I knew that.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?
Ya know? This question fails some people, but not most.
Boo-hoo, poor Hamas always gets picked on....(that's coming)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:13pm PT
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I dunno Tomcat, ask the Lebonese, some Hezbollah captured a few Israeli soldiers and Israel invaded, leaving 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets on the ground.
So do we suggest everybody just kill whomever they have the technology to kill so they don't beat us to it?
I'm thinking with a billion Muslims in the world, it's not the best plan.
Like Jesus said, it's not worth it to lose your soul over worldly gain and loss.
peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
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If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?
Ya know? This question fails some people, but not most.
Boo-hoo, poor Hamas always gets picked on....(that's coming)
Ah the return of the prodigal Boo Hoo Bluering. Who has failed the same question.
If someone shoots missiles and bombs into your country killing over 300 and wounding more than a thousand are you going to stop shooting rockets even if they suck?
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
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Guess we'll find out PhiLO.
Two billion Christians Karl.Who do you suppose has better weapons?
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:23pm PT
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"If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?
Ya know? This question fails some people, but not most"
If it were all this simple.......EVERYONE could actually understand the situation!
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
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Israel is the classic abusive bully (1 dead vs 300 dead). The problem is that the entire world is watching and doing nothing because Israel is enabled by the United States. Maybe the bully is doing one last smashing before Obama starts? Because clearly Bush could care less. He has barely mentioned Israel in his 8 years. Hopefully Obama won't be so negligent especially in behind the scenes negotiations.
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