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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dirt has it right about Lois. It just about her perceived selfish interests.
Sadly, we don't even get that with current GOP policies. You literally have to die to escape the consequences of borrowing and printing money to support wars, fiscal "stimulus (vote buying) packages" and the rest.
We're willing to screw our kids (hoping we'll die in time) in order to have the lowest tax rate now, even if it wrecks the economy and the value of the dollar (our money) later.
Denial is the most expensive strategy in the the world
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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from dirt's link
...But Stein's suggestion that Obama plans to raise the capital gains rate on "people that have incomes in the five digits" is false. In fact, Obama has said he would not raise the capital gains tax on individuals with income of less than $250,000. In a June 9 interview with CNBC's John Harwood, Obama said, "[K]eep in mind on all of these proposals, what I have said is, let's make sure that we define the well-off so that we're not hitting the middle class. I generally define well-off as people who are making $250,000 a year or more, and that means, for example, if we raise the capital gains tax, I would exempt people who are essentially small investors, and really capture the -- those who have done very, very well over the last two decades."
Furthermore, Stein asserted that Obama's tax plan would put Americans' retirement plans at risk: "It means a huge amount in terms of retirement planning, because if you are retiring, you're going to depend a lot on capital gains from your investments to fund your retirement. If that's going to be taxed away, your retirement is in severe jeopardy." However, Stein's statement ignores the fact that distributions from 401(k) and IRA accounts are taxed as regular income, not as capital gains...."
Get real people, there is no way to move toward fiscal reponsibility, war or no war, welfare or no welfare, without increasing tax revenues instead of merely borrowing.
The only question is who pays and how do they sell it to us by suggesting it's somebody else
peace
Karl
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Karl writes:
"Get real people, there is no way to move toward fiscal reponsibility, war or no war, welfare or no welfare, without increasing tax revenues instead of merely borrowing."
Yeah there is.
Just spend less money, that's all The Government has to do.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Fatty wrote
"As per the dollar, it's value will soon skyrocket against the Euro, many countries, Spain and Italy, are insolvent."
I can quote emails from you saying the same thing a few years back. The dollar has lost 40% of it's value since then. The fed is printing fiat money based on nothing and the bill is coming due.
Clinton got elected stating he would raise taxes, he did, and the economy did fine. Say that for chimpy boy who had a big fat housing bubble to pimp if he chose to.
For those with a tolerance to study economic wriitings, I suggest
Bad Money by Kevin Phillips. A perfect storm is already brewed.
http://tinyurl.com/5j83f8
If you have money to lose (I really don't) you better check it out.
We sold our country to the rich because they paid for the elections and the media to confound us. Live with it. It's not going to change until it's too late to make things better economically, just spiritually.
Whomever gets elected will have an economic shitstorm to deal with and it won't be a matter of a little tax nudge here or there but potential fascism at stake.
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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For those who can't be trouble to explore that link: Here's part of the first user review
"...he reminds us that previous empires such a 17th century Spain, 18th century Holland, and the late 19th and early 20th century Britain all succumbed to financialization as their global power reached its peak. He argues the the United States is now in a similar position. In the last 30 years financial services have grown from 11% of GDP to 21%, and manufacturing has declined from 25% to 13%. A reversal of roles that Phillips sees as very unhealthy.
This huge growth of the financial sector was not without adverse consequences: in the last 20 years public and private debt has quadrupeled to $43 trillion. How this came about has been expertly explained in another book called The Trillion Dollar Meltdown: Easy Money, High Rollers, and the Great Credit Crash by Charles Morris. There was easy money as the Federal Reserve was lending money at less than the rate of inflation. Money was risk-free for the lender since they collected fees up front and sold the securitized loans to investors. When this process was repeated millions of times, one ends up with hard-to-value securitized debt throughout the global economy. Then when housing prices start to decline and homeowners start to default on their mortgages on a grand scale, you have a global crisis of American capitalism..."
Think about it
and that's without the slightest help from the "peak Oil" I've preached for year now. When we smoke some peak oil with our financial meltdown, we'll have bigger fish to fry than McCain or Obama can dare say.
peace
Karl
Ps, this isn't pink talk either. From that same review
"The author began his career as a Republican strategist, but he has long since disavowed them. Having a monetary policy of free money, a fiscal policy of tax cuts and increased spending, and an ideology of unregulated market fundamentalism, the Republicans have lost most of their credibiltiy. This does not mean Phillips has gone over to the Democratic side. He believes that Bill Clinton was instrumental in the financialization of the economy, and that currently Hillary and Obama are beholden to investment bankers and hedge fund managers. What used to be the vital center in Washington is now the "venal center."
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Philo- "How about clearly presenting his stances as you see them rather than making false blanket statements about them? "
Good god do you know how many times I've gone there with her? Save your energy.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"Senator Barack Obama altered his position on Monday to urge tapping the nation’s Strategic Petroleum Reserve to lower gas prices, as he outlined an energy plan that puts him sharply at odds with Senator John McCain’s focus on nuclear energy and expanded offshore drilling."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/05/us/politics/05campaign.html
Another flip-flop to pander to the voters. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve should be used in emergencies only and not to manipulate the market and lower prices for consumers. If there is another war in Gulf (involving Iran for example) or if there is another OPEC embargo, we will need the Reserve.
Obama is still preferable to McCain IMO. He has pandered less than the other candidates, but every poltiican has to do some pandering to get elected and Obama is showing that he is no exception.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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I can barely read LEB drivel, but once dirt goes and starts rebutting it point by point, I can stick with it for a while.
And just to pile on with my friend Mr. Stan....yeah, stuff in retirement accounts is not subject to capital gains tax.
Which gives all of us another reason to paraphrase Dan Akroyd...
Lois, you ignorant slut.
I'm not saying there are no reasons why some people might prefer McCain's platform or his policies; but maybe if LEB spent as much time seeking information as she does debating small points with people just to try to save a tiny bit of face in an online debate, she could come up with real reasons to prefer McCain. Instead she continues with this fear-mongering, name-calling, "Obama is a European-style socialist who wants to steal my nest-egg."
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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dmalloy,
Did your Mom raise you in a whorehouse?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Radical: Fatrad - I've been watching your man McCain and I will bet you anything he will not win!!!!
Yeah c'mon!! That's what I was hoping this thread would be about.
Losers pay $X (self pledged amount) to the Yosemite Fund. Who is REALLY confident their horse will win?
Anyone?
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jstan
climber
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Jeff:
Lois did not mention any Roth's so it was a little off the topic.
I have read P590 front to back and then back to front but nothing helps me with the Roth 5 year rule. If you conribute/convert to your first Roth on 2/1/05 I am clear the five year rule starts as of 1/1/05.
But now when I convert to another Roth on 3/15/06 is that Roth subject to the earlier 5 year period(1/1/05) or does it have its own period starting 1/1/06? P590 is just about as obscure as it can be and even more complicated. But I do have confidence the IRS is willing to set up any structure no matter how silly.
You don't need to answer as I need to go to my CPA for a number of things. What a disaster the code is. Before Nixon started taxing small savers none of this huge IRA and Roth structure was even needed. The inefficiency of this whole thing is mindboggling.
I swear..........frequently.
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coldstonesoup
Mountain climber
outside the taco stand
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He's a skinny black man, of course he's going to lose. Do you really think Jesus would get elected? I'm really digging the whole antichrist thing going now. To be compared to Charleston Heston! What an insult.
I really like the new McCain ad, quoting Obama saying, "yes WE can. We can do this, We can do that." Thanks Johnny, looks like all those years in the Arizona sun finally fixed you right.
Did I spell Heston right?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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" but having Obama raise them is really pissy in my book.'
Except he is NOT going to raise them on you. I wonder if that will ever sink in.
.........
Warbler wrote on another thread.
"The republicans I know and consider friends vote their pocketbook - they believe republicans won't "tax and spend" their money. That's the most important thing in their minds.
I believe they pay in different little ways for voting as they do, whether they realize/admit it or not - medical insurance and drug costs, college tuition, oil prices, higher food prices, environmental degradation, loss of civil rights, loss of respect as Americans across the world, inferior public education for their children, - little things like that. "
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Round and round and round she goes...
Tell me Lois, did you even read the link detailing what Obama actually said, and did you notice that you do not fall into his income bracket for the capital gains tax he proposes?
Most likely you are just going to go on believing what you want to believe, regardless of the truth, no matter how often the truth is shoved under your nose.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Lois, I'm sorry you feel this way. One thing you should know, the democrats have woken up to the realities of spending and taxation. Just look at the history of spending over the last 50 years. The republicans are the spenders. What you are basing your fears on is old history. Much like what you are basing your trust of Republicans on. Yes the republicans use to be conservative. They aren't anymore. History has shown both parties switching more then once. Currently the dems are the most conservative financially.
The only thing the republicans are conservative on is marriage and abortion. No gay marriage and no abortion. Two things you don't care about.
Perhaps you need to take a fresh look.
As for protecting America. Please try to remember that more democrats have served in the military then republicans.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Moosie Repubs aren't the spenders any more than the Dems are. Power corrupts and when the cookie jar is open everyone wants as many cookies as they can get. The only difference was that the Repubs had both chambers of Congress and the White House and still PRETENDED that they were the fiscally responsible ones all the while doling out cash and borrowing money to make it happen.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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More dems have led the charge on fiscal reform then repubs. Thats what I base my opinion on. Plus the repubs for the last 30 years seem to think that borrowing against the future is okay. Just look at fatties notions about the strength of the dollar. He thinks it will grow strong because other countries will fail. He doesn't care if the dollar is strong because we as a nation are strong. He only cares if it is strong in relation to other countries. For America to be strong, her middle class must be strong. The republicans favor the upper upper class. That is what they base their entire economic picture on. Trickle down economics.
It doesn't work, except for the wealthiest people. Who just get wealthier while everyone else gets poorer.
Edit: None of this means that I want to see the dems in complete control. I agree, as long as we are led by our egos, we will need a balancing factor.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Talk is cheap??? that is the best you can do???
Oh, then McCain coming out for torture, is that just cheap talk too, but you trust him?
So let me get this straight, you really do just believe what you want to believe, regardless of the truth, and you think you can know the true hidden intent of these guys, so that what they say does not matter. It's only what YOU think they REALLY mean that matters.
So, McCain says torture away, and you don't believe he means it.
That is beyond idiotic.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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NO Lois, I try to base my actions on rational thought. I don;t try to find a hidden meaning or agenda in what people say.
If someone says they are for torture, I have to take them at their word until they demonstrate otherwise.
YOU on the other hand refuse to believe them, because you know in your heart they don't really mean it.
BUT, when someone else tells you they won't tax capital gains until the $250K point, you immediately know they are lying.
Again, what nonsense.
Now, as for you 'knowing' Obama or McCain, I'm going to bet you've never talked to either one. I'll even bet you've never watched an in depth interview with Obama.
You simply are going on your innate prejudices, with nothing to back em up.
BTW, nice try to equate everyday encounters with people you know at least on some level personally, with non-encounters with people you only see if at all from a great distance and in sound bites on Fox news. That doesn't wash.
In all this political 'debate' (I put debate in single quotes to indicate that there really is no debate, your mind is totally made up and unchangeable) you have shown yourself repeatedly to be uninformed, and unwilling to accept evidence that contradicts your ignorant fantasies.
You really should be ashamed.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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11,393 posts. That's a lot for a non-climber. Perhaps you should join Crowley over at that other forum, the argue with everyone (or whatever it's called) forum.
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