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WBraun
climber
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What happened to the Uncle?
Did he see something in the mirror that wasn't suposed to be there?
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Wern, this is the Age of Hypocrisy and Quarrel; what are you doing taking part in this sinful atmosphere???///
Shouldn't you be busy chanting, "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare," or something???///
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Blight
Social climber
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Not having convictions or principles leaves atheists in a curious quandary: without principles, after all, one can't have the courage to stand up for them. Indeed in the intellectual arena it leaves them without courage at all.
This is well expounded in this thread: repeatedly we see atheists, all unaware of the irony, complaining that their ideals are attacked. In a thread designed by an atheist to abuse the beliefs of religious people, based around an article designed by an atheist to abuse the beliefs of religious people, this is richly comical.
Of course this kind of gutless whining is widespread amongst atheists: the desire to be able to act the school bully, abusing whomever they choose - but without those they abuse being permitted to stand up for themselves.
Lok for example at the furore surrounding the Danish mohammed cartoons. The cartoons were deliberately abusive and offensive, in fact that was their sole purpose. Yet when the Muslim communuity worldwide was offended at their beliefs being so abused, atheists everywhere complained bitterly that it was so unfair and irrational of them to defend themselves in protests and anger.
Who but a snivelling coward starts a fight then complains when the person they start it with defends himself?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Bight, please got martyr yourself elsewhere.
Your OBVIOUSLY flawed crapspew has ceased to be funny. That you can believe what you write is incomprehensible.
Pointing out your numerous and self-evident errors has no effect on your continued verbal flatulence, so, it's time for nice cup of STFU, moron.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Sorry to be an as#@&%e but sometimes one has to do this to make a point. Take on the role or stance that the "other side" thinks you are taking even though they are completely wrong.
What you are hearing (reading) from me, is the same thing I and many others hear coming from you when you state that people who do not believe in a christian god have no morals and can not see what is right in front of them, or at least need to open their eves to see. This belief is usually, I'd venture to say 95% of the time, completely wrong.
When you "attack" science and the scientific method you are doing the same thing you are accusing "non believers" of doing, and vice versa.. Which to me is very odd since science and the scientific method is what has allowed us to post to SuperTopo and get into this rigamarole.
There seem to be quite a few stereotypes that need to be erased.
1. That all believers in God are against or don't recognize science as a legitimate form of thought process.
2. That all believers in science and the scientific method do not believe in god and are moral degenerates.
Both of these examples are absolutes in a "shades of grey" world and do no good to either side of an argument that is very simple but gets complicated by human ego.
I filled up 3 pages of text in expectation of posting it all in reply to this thread.
Then I came by this site that explains my thinking and rationale all too well.
Speaking of faith - Einstein and the Mind of God.
Some points I do not agree with but the main point and premise, that probably the most influential person in science in the modern era was a devoutly religious person , is what I'm trying to point out.
Science and religion are not mutually exclusive concepts.
Einstein was trying to understand the mind of god through the scientific method. Which in all reality is probably his greatest contribution to society, which goes largely unrecognized.
Werner,
When you go out on a rescue do you think about how your anchors are placed to make sure they can handle the load you are placing on them? This is science. Do you say a prayer to yourself when you make a "sketchy" move to get to a victim? That is religion and your own personal faith. You use both to get the job done. No mutual excusivity there at all.
Does thinking about how to set up the anchor system challenge your faith?
Does your faith in god preclude you from thinking about the best way to set up that anchor?
I'd venture that you'd respond no to both counts.
From my perspective you are on a similar path as Einstein. Having devout faith but using science to help you get through life and help others.
It's clear in the basin for the first time in 2 months, got to go commune with "god" outside.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Uncle Doug, you're hopeless...literally. It's people like you that I pray for mostly. I got your back.
Quit being so bitter.
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WBraun
climber
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Uncle
LOL
In my post above I said; "Follow instructions correctly, it's the scientific method."
The scientific method is the bonafide authorized method for understanding all knowledge.
So where do you get the crazy idea I'm against science?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Ok, I am going to wander just a bit here, but others on this Thread have. Plus I won't be bitter, vitriolic, mean, angry and @###.
(So now that no one will read this.....hehe)
Many of you Argue, Argue...about your philosophies of life. For me what is important in life is what really WORKS to make your own life and the lives of those around you better, happier and trying to fill life with love, joy, peace, giving and forgiving, sharing, helping....the important things.
I would not adopt many of your shared beliefs because of the anger etc. that flows from your posts.
In my life, when put into practice, the words of jesus actually WORK.
I challenge all of you to just go to the bible and read only the words of jesus, (reading the whole bible is great, but some people have an aversion to reading "directions" for how to make something work.) They are found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Jesus never put anyone down except the hypocrites of his established church (temple). Those he actually threw out and turned over their sales tables. Only time, I think, jesus got angry.
All he ever wanted was for people to have the best life possible.
FINALLY AND MOST IMPORTANT. I have tried (and failed often of course) to follow jesus. If I am wrong about him, hey, his words ....if you ever read them are the way to an incredibly great life. So, if he isn't the son of god (which I believe he is) I have lost nothing....
My life has been the best, filled with love, hope, peace, joy, patience, perserverance, forgiveness all applied in large doses to myself and those who come into my life. And on the bad days I get forgiven.
So, I have no guilt, I live each day with hope and I have the hope of eternity.
Like I said if I'm wrong, oh well, it's given me an incredible life. Lynne
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Lynne- I'm right there with you girl and I wish you much love on that path. If that embodied the reality of what many churches preached and followers practiced I'm sure we'd all be pretty happy with the results.
*edit* The Quakers I have to say are probably the most admirable Christians I've ever seen. They truly embody the principles of forgiveness, sacrifice and community that were the concepts I was most impressed upon when I was in church as a child. I wish that my school program had done a better job educating us on them when we visited a Quaker community. The strength they showed after that shooting last year (year before) was just inspiring.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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They were Amish, not Quakers. Their fortitude is admirable, yes, but one does not necessarily need a mythological worldview to develop such emotional maturity. But if it works for you, hey, fine. No hatred here, as long as you don't start pushing your god into the lives of moral people who can do just fine without him, thanks.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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You are right, sorry. I often mix Amish/Quaker/Shaker.
And no you do not, however it has been a powerful tool to that end. If it didn't work so well it wouldn't be so prominent in human culture. I'm an agnostic myself but I appreciate the authentic aspects of all the religious texts and cultures. Jesus was a wise dude as he is portrayed in the Bible. Lots worth reading there even if you don't believe in his divinity.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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I agree that there is wisdom in just about all religions, but the signal-to-noise ratio tends to be a turnoff. And I personally don't buy the idea of eternal life, much as that would be a nice thing. Consciousness is fascinating,though, and science provides daily examples of just how fascinating the universe and our comprehension of it are. Morality is a matter of cooperation, and maintaining a sense of proportion in our relationships. Also, evolution is true, creationism is not. Other than that, I have no arguments with the cultural values of faith, especially when we didn't really know how so many things actually worked. But there's a time to put away childish things, as they say.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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" I challenge all of you to just go to the bible and read only the words of jesus, (reading the whole bible is great, but some people have an aversion to reading "directions" for how to make something work.) They are found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John."
Lynne, I challenge you to explain how the Old Testament provides "directions" on how to make the Gospels work.
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andanother
climber
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I can't be bothered to read all the new posts in this thread, so this may have already been covered.
But I have two questions for the creationists:
Do you have toenails?
and for the men:
Do you have nipples?
If so, perhaps you could take a moment and explain why God gave you those things.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Is there Any verifiable proof that there was Jesus?
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WBraun
climber
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God gave toenail so rock climber can stand on dime size edges.
Andy is still a monkey with nipples so he can't boulder yet.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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LEB: "Well, the problem is that we can't read the words of Jesus because Jesus wrote down no words for us to read. At best we can read are accountings of what someone else claims he said. The other problem is that hundreds of years later, someone else (a pope, to be exact) chose which particular accountings we could read. Said pope selected the books (including the gospels) according what he believed was "best" as per his judgment and motivation. So if Christ reputedly said or did something that this pope did not approve of then we don't get to read that either."
Good post. I can't wait to see the response to this.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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I had an educational aide who is a creationist and has had her big toenails removed (for reals) on a good day she can stand on a ground size edge. Is she Devo?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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My understanding is that there is a fairly solid historical record in support of the existence of Jesus. I couldn't quote you anything but that is my recollection.
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