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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Top of the 5.2-5.12 Boulder
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Dec 25, 2009 - 10:40am PT
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Whoa....got your kit goin'.......
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Cannon
Trad climber
Wildomar, CA
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Dec 25, 2009 - 11:13am PT
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my aplogise if this has been brought up, but i didnt have the patients to wade through the 160 some odd posts.
TOD GORDON. in the 5th set of photos you put up. that is J-Tree, yes. if you recall, what are the names of the routes
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dec 25, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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the 5th photo I posted was of Houses of the Homeless (Hall of Horrors) at Joshua Tree...the photo in the 5th SET of photos is a single photo taken of a climb called Wet Behind, Dry Wallet (5.10c) at the Hollywood Boulders in Oz at Joshua Tree...hope those are the right ones...
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Mar 27, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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Hey BLaw...this SDS bit sucks....will your machine bits work w/Pika holder?
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Mar 27, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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More photos please. Todd?
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Mar 27, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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Some high quality rock, totally worthy of stance drilling. The first bolt on the second pitch of Flying Circus, Tahquitz.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 27, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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Yeah more photo's!
There was a heavy power drill barrage earlier, had to set this thread back on point.
Mucci
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 28, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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aldude, nice recovery thread!
Muccisimus Aquafinus Mossticularity
oops, this is the 'stance' thread, and here I go posting up the hookers
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 28, 2010 - 01:17am PT
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 28, 2010 - 01:24am PT
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TG, Chiriaco....always on the lead
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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“There was a heavy power drill barrage earlier, had to set this thread back on point.”
WooHoo! Nice recovery by you guys, starting with the Styleee One. And nice to see the hammers in the air.
Al Dude Lives…! SICK stance! The drill leash tells the truth. Damn! Looks like bubble gum territory to me as far as the bolting (push and stick… technology not yet developed…).
Old shoes, but “current” looking shades, a bent DMM, and a skinny sling – photo relatively recent?
Master Al Dude, we need to get you a Hurricane drill. Then, you can use whatever, wherever, drill bits you would like. Deucey really created a great tool. Maybe Ebay, or the like? If not, we’ll keep the word out to look for one here on ST. There have got to be extras floating around – how many were made and how many are actually used these days?
Can’t remember what the mouth of a Pika drill looks like, but it uses allen set-screws, right? I dunno; anyone else have any experience with this setup? If it will accept an SDS bit, then I would guess that a 25/64” (slightly oversized 3/8”) hardware store bit (high-speed steel) will fit into the holder. You’ll have to check it out. Then, if necessary, maybe grind a slight flat surface (parallel to the length of the drill bit) at the bottom end of the bit so that the allen screws have a flat place to “seat” in order to crank down on the bit.
Do you have bit loosening problems with the allen screws? If so, have you tried loctite? If the Pika holder seems to work for you and you can get the HSS bits to seat and stay tight, then cool, you’re in there! But if you have any sort of problems with that thing, I highly recommend a Hurricane to anyone who is doing any serious hand drilling, especially someone such as yourself.
Sharpening a HSS drill bit from its original tip shape to a FLAT (not pointed) chisel tip designed for efficient rock drilling requires proper eyeballing, but isn’t complicated in the least “bit.” Sorry… A tip that is too blunt (wider angle) will obviously be less sharp and will drill slower. A tip that is too sharp (narrow angle) will drill faster at first, but will bind more with hole-depth. Maybe one of these days I should dig out my bolting gear and post a thread about my setup…???
Any specific questions, you can email or phone me. Cheers, Al!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 28, 2010 - 01:59am PT
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Minerals-
My petzl drill just broke, the whole collet (sp?) popped off after <100 or so bolts!
I picked up a pika, so I am gonna try milling down the shaft of the hss bit and see if it works. They do have a rep for loosening.
Would the locktite application ruin the integrity of the threads after repeated use?
I really want a hurricane.
Mucci
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2010 - 04:28am PT
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Hey Mucci… damn, bummer! That thing wasn’t worth even a cent? “Sheesh!” ...as the Crazy Canuck Crab would say. The collet nut just fell off? I thought that just happened to Huber Hurricanes… Damn gravity! ;)
Don’t take off too much metal on the HSS bits – just enough to create a flat spot wide enough for the allen screws to seat. Remove too much metal and you will weaken the bit and then, SNAP, right in the middle of your proud and sketchy stance… Akkk!!! That is the worst, and one drawback of the HSS bits, compared to the SDS bits – change the bit, downclimb, or whip – I’ve had to do all three and sometimes things can be exciting. But that’s what makes rock climbing FUN!!! Out of something like 165 bolts last year, I think I snapped maybe a half dozen HSS bits or fewer. With proper technique, they don’t break too often. Ya just gotta hit ‘em straight on, though… Abrupt leverage and no more they are…
You may (will) obliterate the carbide tip on an SDS bit but I don’t think I’ve ever seen the shaft of one snap in half – bend yes, but they are way too burly (and soft) to snap. HSS bits are made of harder steel than the steel of SDS bits and they are more brittle, and prone to snapping at mid-length or so. In comparison, the carbide tips of SDS bits are even harder and will sooner or later shatter after heavy hand drilling use, at which point the bit is destined to the shrapnel pile, for further separation and use later… :)
Breaking 25/64” HSS bits is not so much of a concern as with the quarter-inch (17/64”) diameter bits, but the high-quality-made bits (USA MADE!!!!!!!!!!!) are much better than the ones that say “China”, etc… They’re not as easy to find these days, as our country is not maintaining the manufacturing base that it should, for its own health (and ours), but if you keep looking, you should be able to find them. I purchased the majority of my 17/64” bits from a mail order machine tool supply catalog. If you are serious about drilling and want a lot of bits, then buying in bulk from a quality machine tool distributor (Internet or catalog) is your best bet, for quality and price.
With HSS bits, you also need to keep a good number of bits on hand, or at least I think so for drilling while free climbing. I usually pop in a fresh quarter for any stance that looks at all questionable. If the stance turns out to be not so bad or fat city when I get there, then I will pull up the 3/8” kit on the trail line and spend the time to sink a fatty. If the stance is real, then I will do my best to make that 17/64” sharpie drill, drill, drill! No sense in getting to a desperate stance and having to drill with a slightly dulled bit (used for one hole or two) because you were too lazy to change the bit while resting after the last bolt. I say… I want every advantage that I can get when dealing with that oh-so-fun moment of getting to what you thought was going to be a good stance! UhhHuh!
The HSS bit system is more of a pain to deal with than a quick-change SDS system, and sometimes more time consuming, but I feel that it is worth it and important to my ability to place bolts from difficult (to me) stances.
So far, I think my fastest lead quarter (1/4” x 1 1/2” buttonhead) was the bolt after the short runout (by modern Tuolumne wuss standards) on the first pitch of Flash of the Blade on Razor Back. After some serious psyche, I climbed to the (not too bad at all) stance (“Al Dude’s Bivy Ledge”) and pulled out the Hurricane. I think it took me between 2:15 and 2:30 (max) to have the bolt clipped, from the first hammer blow. Greg Barnes and Brian Bennett were there to witness. No stopwatch, but by their estimates, and a 3:00 bolt timed by George elsewhere in Tuolumne that seemed waaay slower than the aforementioned, I think our estimates are fair. But maybe that’s slow by old school standards. I dunno.
Loctite is a liquid (colored per locking strength) that is applied in drops to the threads of bolts to prevent loosening, once dried. It does not harm or change the surface of the metal of the bolt/threads. I use red loctite on just about every bolt on my ’95 CR 500 dirt bike because it’s just one giant vibrator that will leave parts in the desert otherwise! Check with your local auto parts store for loctite or thread-lock products. The stuff ain’t cheap, considering how much you get.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/products/subcategory.asp%3fCatID=10&SubID=48
Do I hear a chant from the ST crowds…???
McDevitt Hammers, Hurricanes…
McDevitt Hammers, Hurricanes…
McDevitt Hammers, Hurricanes…
Theron is again being paged!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 28, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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Thanks for the word!
I have been grinding down the tips of the SDS, I still have not found the best angle but on a few of them, the drilling is drastically improved.
It is a fine line as to how sharp an angle you can get away with. But getting a second round with those bits is pretty nice.
Even just a trim to "Resharpen" the carbide works wonders, and can be done with a diamond or regular "Black" wheel.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Mar 28, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
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Yesterday,
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Mar 29, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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Yo Bry.... photo was from last week. The mismatched shoes are my secret weapon - board lasted,lace to the toe Onyx driven muthas! Does 5.10 still make the straight chisel bits in 3/8ths ? I still have a rawl holder in my 1/4 in. kit. Do you have any? Those rigs were the bomb. What happened with the drilling comp w/Salmanizer ?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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Uhhhhh… How ‘bout a sober post this time… :)
Mucci – you have been able to sharpen the SDS tips and have had no problems with them shattering while drilling? Do you swing a heavy hammer and “talk” to the drill, or more vice versa? I’ve sharpened a few on a silicon-carbide (green) wheel a while back, but the tips just shattered after not much drilling. Cool deal if you are getting that to work! Others have said that a diamond wheel on a Dremel tool works as well. But I’d imagine that the lifespan of a regular (black) grinding wheel would be significantly reduced if used to sharpen carbide tips. I’m curious as to what you’d think of the Hurricane/HSS setup.
Al Dude – Yeah, the mismatched shoes definitely add style. Nice photo. And I can’t imagine a better way to go than what you just described – board-lasted, laced to the toe, and with Onyx. I should try that stuff over C4 next time – maybe on the TCs that need a board in ‘em. 5.10 doesn’t make any board-lasted shoes, do they? I still can’t find anything that beats Kaukulators for me. Huhhhh…
Not sure about 5.10 and drill bits these days, but kind of doubt it. Anyone? I may have a couple of the old 5.10 bits in 3/8” (with the straight flutes), but they are buried way back in storage with my no longer used old gear. Got a couple of the old Rawl holders too.
If you’ve got a grinder and are willing to spend the time for some semi-precise tinkering, you might be able to modify HSS drill bits by adding a taper on the bottom end, such that the bit seats properly in the Rawl holder (smooth bit/drill interface, adequate drift pin clearance, bit centered and straight, etc.). I forget the exact dimensions on the old Rawl holders so I don’t know if this will really work. But it’s a thought. Still think you should find a Hurricane… Then you can do whatever you want.
The drilling duel? I dunno. Maybe Salamanizer wasn’t that serious about it. I think it would have been a lot of fun. Hope to see you in Tuolumne this summer - got a couple new routes for you to check out.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 31, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Minerals- I have used both the diamond wheel and the standard black wheel on carbide tips.
I have a few that were done with the black wheel and they have not broken, I never cooled the tip, and would try and eyeball the structure of the tip to get a idea of maximizing the metal.
They end up flat with just a bit of the original tip.
Of note, the Pika drill will take HSS bits, You just have to measure the bit to the threaded lock studs, and mill or grind a shallow notch on each side. Booyah!
Problem is I think the two studs are 7mm which is hard to find, I am missing one right now.
The hurricane is great, a friend has one with the "raised" striker as you mentioned up thread. Were those 1st generation?
I have not tried a HSS bit on the Hurricane, could you fab a different collet and maybe groove the bit?
Pika seems to me to be the next best drill to the hurricane, although I think you lose energy per strike on the hurricanes that have the raised striker.
How is the drilling with it after you grind to flat?
Drill talk live!
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Mar 31, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
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SLACK!! PINNNG!!!!!!!!!!
Can't wait to get back.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 31, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
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It seems, by the entries on this thread, that lots of people have lost the distinction between stance drilling and drilling from hooks.
Bob Kamps used to razz me for using hooks. He would say "You know, it's not really a free climb if you used aid to set the protection."
For myself, it's always ground up. But I've used hooks more often than I have "stanced." I did do some pretty exciting stance drilling at Dome Rock a few times. I was climbing with Herb Laeger, and like the late great Mr. Kamps, he dislikes the use of hooks, although he'll use one in a pinch. We did a couple routes at Courtright that simply weren't going to happen any other way.
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