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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 13, 2007 - 09:08pm PT
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IT's okay to have to catch up with the past, or do the best you can in that direction. In the modern world we have more venues to challenge ourselves in; why compromise the ones we don't quite 'get' yet? -doing 'that' would obliviate the point entirely.
After multiple attempts, I Tr-ed the Thimble, in first generation sticky rubber fires™. I came away shaking in said boots. Though I can't ( or at least did not) experience what Dr Gill did, the first time, I still felt enlightned. I didn't change the route for those who can do a more pure ascent, though.
You can't "cross the same river twice," but you don't have to obscure the original message by dumbing it down.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 14, 2007 - 12:08am PT
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Tarbrutha,
I misunderstood you about the "without the bolt" on Grey Ghost, thinking you meant that one was added. Yeah that lower bolt was irrelevant to the business up above. Basically a solo, but with a rope to weigh ya down. Wonder how many times that has been done in the last 20 years.
Peter
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Sep 14, 2007 - 04:24am PT
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John, "I consider Joe a friend, we used to solo 5.11 together"
Huh? Can either of you guy's name even one route that you soloed together? I consider Joe a friend too but had he soloed even a 5.10 route w/the almighty JB everyone of his bros in the ditch would have heard all about it.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sep 14, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
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bwhahaha! You go git 'em Kenny!
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 14, 2007 - 12:27pm PT
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John said, I have on sight soloed a number of FA's in various places (especially Tuolumne) that may come close to being in those categories. I have mixed feelings about them. One in particular is "Solitary Confinement" on Fairview Dome. It is 5.9 (maybe 10a), four pitches (don't know really - didn't use a rope). I am fairly proud of this accomplishment and it is one of the hardest things I've ever done. Even though it is relatively easy climbing it was very difficult and committing to walk up to this 300 foot black streak and "go for it" on the free solo. I didn't know how hard it was going to be and to this day I would have a hard time seeing bolts placed on it.
I get from you John that this was one of those defining moments for you, where you stepped out of a comfort zone and climbed thru. Probably nobody did it better than you did. I know I gathered inspiration from tales of your solo’s that were printed in the mags in the late 70’s through the 80’s.
That is truly the great thing about climbing is that those defining moments can come to all ability levels and types of climbs. 99.99% of us are not "advancing the sport" or pushing standards. But we can all share those defining moments.
I have almost always agreed with the idea that routes should not be changed after their first ascent (except to replace old gear with new). However, this discussion has forced me to re-think that notion. Throughout life (and climbing) our opinions and thoughts are sometimes challenged and we rise to that challenge based upon our life’s experience and knowledge base.
As a recreational climber who didn’t push any standards other than my own, perhaps I am out of place sharing this with some of the finest climbers in the world on such weighty matters.
However, the commonality that I too, have had defining moments in my experience leads me to share this. I on-site soloed a few new routes back in the 80’s, and one of them stands out for me. It was so close to my roped on-site ability as to rank in the fool hardy category, but sometimes it is those moments where we survive that end up being a “defining” moment. That route was later bolted by a party that was unaware that the line had been climbed. I frankly had no interest in climbing it again, no further experience on that route would rival what I had when I was alone. That moment in time was gone, yet will always be with me as one of those defining moments. I moved away from that area and never heard much until a few years ago when I started looking at some of the climbing sites on the internet. The few comments I read from some climbers who had climbed the route, and knew the history, leads me to believe that the route in question offers the climbing community more than just a museum piece. Frankly, I am glad that it was bolted. Make no mistake, this route is no Tuolumne test piece, and the only bearing it may have on this discussion is that it was one of my defining moments where the climb was bolted to allow future climbers safe passage.
I believe that climbers get more appreciation out of the route by understanding the history and climbing it, than by walking by and not climbing it. The fact is, no amount of preservation will equal the moments I had. This is no call to arms to bolt those bold routes, in fact, I am much more concerned about someone adding bolts to say, Bachar-Yerian than they are on the little insignificant pebbles I climbed first.
Ontheedgeandscaredtodeath said, subset to all of this is the free solo first ascent. It doesn't happen much, but when it does it essentially forecloses all future use of the rock, unless you can TR the climb. These are true museum climbs. It's so uncommon that it doesn't really matter much beyond interweb pondering. But, if a 5.12 climber just free soloed a bunch of 5.8s on a cliff, those climbs would be off limits to almost all other climbers. Seems selfish to me.
It was really this comment that got me to thinking about it. IMHO otestd has a point. I think a route that is virtually unclimbable without bolts is more valuable to the community at large if it is opened up, so long as the history is maintained. I for one won’t ever drill the bolts required but I also won’t be chopping them. I am also not for bolting everything to make them reasonable.
Risk in climbing is something that have no ratings for and a lot of these routes must be maintained as yardsticks for fture generations.
Imagine how cool most of us would feel to climb solitary confinement with bolted belays and reasonable runouts with the knowledge that JB had done this ropeless. To me this would be worth more to the community than walking by the line and staring up at it. Otherwise, it will remain a museum piece with perhaps a very, very few brave souls who are willing to reach across the barrier and touch the masterpiece for fear that the punishment of being caught is simply not worth it.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 14, 2007 - 12:34pm PT
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I think Bartlett did a route close to JB's solo line on the right side of Fairview, so you can do that and look across and shake in yer boots, contemplating such a feat!
Peter
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 14, 2007 - 12:56pm PT
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The Park Service is behind this all. With $20/night camping fees and 14 day limits, no climbers can stay in the Meadows long enough to get honed for those monsters.
~~~~
I can't figure out what Werner means by "museum climbs." Are we talking about routes that see very few repeats because they are runout or are we talking about older routes that don't get done because the bolts on them are rotting.
It seems the debate has woven in between the two.
Many old routes don't get done because they have old bolts. While I'd like to think that if the bolts were new, the routes would see some traffic, I'm not so sure.
Now that Arches Terrace has been updated with new hardware, we can look there to see if that type of climbing has simply gone out of style (although I know I'll be going back over there!).
In some senses, I think Joe is right. We recently went over to do some of the great routes below the B/Y ledge. Man, what a ghost town! Even the easy .10- routes had no chalk on them, and those routes are relatively new (3/8" bolts).
As for "museum pieces" that are testaments to bold climbing, see what JB said above. And Joe, some of those routes (B/Y, You Asked For It) have new hardware because the community does respect them.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Sep 14, 2007 - 01:12pm PT
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My point is that if the community actually did respect them, they would never have fallen into disrepair in the first place.
that's some pretty flawed logic
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G_Gnome
Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
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Sep 14, 2007 - 01:22pm PT
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Joe said 'But I guess making claims about free solo's that never happened is JB's stock in trade now, eh?'.
Wow, now THAT is some serious slander! Even if you have nothing else Joe, you certainly have some nerve. I can't wait to see the other responses to that claim.
Kman, the routes on and below the ledge on Medlicott get done all the time. If there was no chalk maybe it was because it had rained recently.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sep 14, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
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Joe probably had a bad day routesetting at the gym.... Let the bitterness begin....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 14, 2007 - 01:31pm PT
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I can see your perspectives informing your opinion Joe.
But flat out calling Bachar a liar?
Jeepers.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 14, 2007 - 01:34pm PT
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I take back what I said about being decent...time to take the gloves off.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:00pm PT
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if i'm not mistaken, this was yet another shot at mr. i guess death can't stop a committed stalker. looks like someone has recovered from that smackdown by marcie.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
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Another thread bites the dust...
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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Joe - I was just joking....all those solos were at least 5.12 !
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G_Gnome
Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:29pm PT
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And Tarbaby, Joe isn't allowed in the gym anymore!
He actually sets some of the best routes you will ever do, but he is the same in real life as he is here and no one tolerates being treated like that by an employee.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:47pm PT
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jhedge, there are pharmaceuticals for some problems. i am sure LEB can suggest some....pathetic.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:52pm PT
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"pssst, hey kid, wanna buy some bolts?"
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
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golsen - I know what you're saying. I am wrestling with these ideas all the time.
Like I said, I would definitely not have a problem with retro bolting some of the things I've done but not all of them. Hopefully people can respect that...sounds like most people can.
"Solitary Confinement" is one of those things that I'm super proud of and I can see both views on it so I will ponder it more!
On another note - I was at Hammer Dome yesterday looking at the museum climbs down there...whew baby, there's some stout sh#t on that wall! A lot of those routes are fairly well protected with new bolts (thanks Greg!) and they are still rarely done.
I think at the time those types of climbs were put up, there really wasn't any friendly hold sport climbing in the area. Now there is. I think people prefer larger holds in general and don't want to deal with the small hold super technical climbs too much anymore. Those climbs are not only hard, they are downright painful. They hurt your fingers and they kill your feet too! And if you don't have some stiff high top shoes, forget it - it's almost impossible to edge these routes in modern sport shoes. "Mystery Achievement" in slippers??? yikes... all those Settlemeyer/Caunt routes? -damn stout edging and well protected too.
Anyway, I'm not so sure a lot of these climbs are becoming museum pieces because they are runout - I think it's largely due to the painfulness of this type of climbing!
Edit: LOL Roy! I do have some extra 1/4" tapers however...
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 14, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
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Johnny B.
I have to say that I am sure I am not alone in really appreciating that you take the time to offer your important perspectives to these threads, and the way you maintain your consistant good humor amidst the BS that flys around here.
Class act as always, thanks bro!
Peter
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