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hannaht
Sport climber
Madison, WI
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In reply to someone a few pages back - I met Pete Cleveland while climbing in the old sandstone area of Devil's Lake just this past weekend. He was out with the Chicago mountaineering club. I talked with him for a while about science (he has a PhD in chemistry), but actually had no idea who he was until he mentioned that he had at one time soloed a climb that we were trying (and mostly failing) to top-rope. So long story short - he's still at it! I'm happy to have found this thread so as to learn some more details of his history (as well as that of others) outside of Wisconsin. Keep the stories coming!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Emotions not reason usually take over when it comes to a subject like this.
Replacing the pin with the FA consent seems like a logical thing to due.
Climbers don't always....
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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hard to argue about upkeep, it's the spectre of additional bolts that raises the hackles.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jay...as it should.
That pin has outlived any sense of security it served forty years ago.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Steve,
I'm not proposing to retrobolt anything, I'm proposing to replace old pitons with modern bolts, and yes, I've climbed/led the route Many times. Usually in these discussions someone suggests we keep a low profile lest the Park gets closed to climbing. In my opinion, the surest way to see the Needles closed to climbing is to see a climber splat, dead at the base of the Needles Eye in front of all the fat tourons and their kids.
I don't know about you Rich, but I hate dealing with a beauracracy and the Coalition is just that. You submit requests for route maintianence, wait some period of time for discussion and voting, wait longer for availability of funds/bolts/hangers, wait for a decision on who will do the work, get a permit from the Park to use the Bosch, etc.,etc.
We climb in the Needles all summer, every summer, when we see an anchor that needs replacing we do it on the spot at our own expense. When we see old leeper hangers held to the rock with button heads we replace them at our own expense.
There is just no way we are going to subject ourselves to the beauracracy of the Coalition just so they can be 'in charge' of climbing in the Needles. And again, ad nauseum, we never see any of the guys you mention climbing in the Needles.
Don said on this thread he would like to see the pins replaced by bolts. In the past the Coalition has argued that the first ascentionist has the right to change the route any way he wants (the ownership concept).
I still have trouble understanding why so many of you think discussing this stuff is such a bad thing. We have some reasonable pro and con discussion going here and I think this is the perfect thread to do it on. Think of it, both climbers involved in putting up a classic route over forty years ago are part of the discussion.
Thank you to all who are participating.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Patience is more than a virtue when dealing with these issues. Before sport climbing philosophy entered the picture (the send justifies the means) the experience of the first ascent party was held up as the yardstick for subsequent ones. The process of discovering and arranging protection (including fixed pins) is central to the challenge met by every subsequent party. Bolts require little from a climber and are usually placed in positions based on convenience rather than adaptation.
Once the fixed pin leaves and the nearby bolt is substituted, there is an immediate disconnect from the experience of the FA. Leaving the pin there anyway just confuses the situation. That loss of flavor and character does matter and should be factored into any alteration decisions on a route of historical value. Most fixed pitons are suspect with respect to holding power even when they are routinely replaced with newer steel. The quandry here is obvious, the solution less so. My response has been the pinbolt in the absence of any other available stainless steel pitons.
The upside of dealing with organizations is that sound policy can result which has a more lasting and widespread effect on the larger climbing community. The Shawangunks experiment is a great example though certainly not free of controversy or dissent.
The downside to wading into the quagmire of democracy is already apparent to you through your ongoing efforts. While there is certainly a place for a personal stand on action amidst the debate, impatience or haste often leads to regret or animosity once the collective mindset is shunned. The resources and the effects of our use and decisions are our responsibility as a community of climbers. I urge you to cast a broad net in your discussion of action before choosing to simply add more bolts.
Land managers have respect for orderly consensus and bolt wars do a lot of damage to our image as one user group among the many competing for their attention and resources.
And in the interest of historical discussion...... Which route in the Needles is Bob Kamps proudest effort?
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Again, no one is choosing to simply add more bolts, replacing old, suspect pins with bolts is quite different than adding more bolts.
There is already a disconnect with the experience of the first ascent, they weren't clipping bolts that had been there for forty years. A further disconnect is that most 'repeats' of the route don't actually do the original route. Most lead off from the parking lot taking the 5.10 variation start thus avoiding the seventy foot groundfall potential the FA party subjected themselves to.
Apples or oranges anyone?
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jstan
climber
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Hammer:
A discussion requires its participants each to be willing to change their position when the discussion requires it. Without this, there is no discussion.
You have stated quite clearly it is your intention to retrobolt the climb at your next opportunity. That statement ended the discussion.
As regards your aversion to bureaucracy, tell me about it! When you do find a new planet free of the need for this, take care not to tell anyone before you go.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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"And in the interest of historical discussion...... Which route in the Needles is Bob Kamps proudest effort?"
Steve, would that be Kamps Crack on the Bell Tower?
A lot of leg pump and it will tear up your arms.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Hammer-How about a photo of the piton placement in question or the size and type. Do you remember the size of the original pin Rgold? I would be happy to cut a couple of pinbolts out for you if you can narrow the size range down by inspection. The pinbolt is the best option for the restoration of a classic.
The Needles has been on my list forever but I won't be out there this season.
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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No offense Steve but a pinbolt is nothing more than a glorified hanger.
The imagery of seeing a pseudo pin in the original placement does not take away the fact that a bolt has been placed.
Others have mentioned upthread a gathering in the Needles to climb together. October is prime season... can we come to a consensus to show up then put up...or throw up...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Funny that people in CO are telling climbers what to do in SD.
I think it's between the FA party and locals.
Replacing a 40 year old pin is kinda a no brainer...or so you would think so.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Funny, this used to be an awesome historical thread with contributions from some of the sports pioneers.
By the way, if you are still around, Thank you Rich.
Prod.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Goat- the problem with fixed pitons are: (1)that they loosen and corrode over time becoming less reliable and (2)boneheads tamper with and steal them. The pinbolt solves both problems directly.
The issue is where does the replacement bolt end up once you abandon the piton placement. If the bolt is placed as close as possible to the original piton position, the pinbolt is still the better option. If the new bolt is placed in the optimal spot for falling and rope drag then the climbing experience is altered as compared to that of all the previous repeats. Whether that sort of alteration is meaningful or desirable is the core of the dilemma. The positioning criteria for a bolt and pinbolt are completely distinct.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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We're getting some real discussion now and I appreciate it, thank you.
I do intend to replace the pins with bolts but I am willing to change my position if I hear a good reason to.
Here is a related question. I managed to get an onsite first ascent (trad) in the Needles over the Labor Day weekend. The problem is I was exposed to a forty foot groundfall before I could get protection in a crack. Should I leave it as is (very dangerous start), or should I go back and add a couple bolts to take away the runout/groundfall potential?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2007 - 12:50pm PT
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Kamps was particularly good at what other people often call "awkward" climbing. Many times, I'd watch him lead something and think to myself, "man, he's screwing this up, I can see how to float that sucker when I get up there." (Ok, I don't really say those words to myself, but I think they fairly represent a non-verbal state of mind.)
Well, the moment of truth occurs when you actually get up there, of course. And then you realize that Kamps has actually been a model of economy, that some of his apparently awkward movements are effective but inimitable, and the horrible scrabblings, flailings, and thrutchings that you substitute for his now desireable but sadly unachievable awkwardness make him look like Nureyev and you like the spaz you really are compared to him.
Kamps did a load of good climbs in the Needles, and the Bell Tower route mentioned earlier is certainly one of them. I was with him on that climb in 1967, and backed off the lead low down before he took over and did it. I haven't repeated all of Bob's routes (come to think of it, this would be a cool project), but of the ones I know (many by virtue of having been the second), I think I'd vote for the Freak's Fright, also done by us in 1967, as the best.
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HJ
Social climber
Bozeman, Montana
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Hammer,
I'm not sure if I know you since I don't know who you are, but my family has been in the Black Hills since the 20's and I've been scrambling and then climbing here my entire life. I have climbed the needles eye numerous times.
It is possible to protect the traverse on the needles eye with either a .5 or a 1 tricam. If the pin ever comes out, my guess is that slot would protect with a modern tiny cam unit, until then you can clip it with a screamer, giving it a better chance of holding. Use double rope technique, clip one to the tricam and the other to the pin with a screamer and this should work pretty good.
A few years ago the pin on superpin was replaced with a bolt. It turns out this was unnecessary as you could protect in the area of the pin, (with the pin in) with modern gear. My feeling is that it may on occasion be reasonable to replace a pin with a bolt if nothing else will work, but in many cases SOMETHING ELSE WILL work. Also, I agree that placing the bolts in different orientations than the original pins is very bad form and definitely changes the nature of the route.
I have provided a reasonable argument for leaving the route the way it is.
cheers,
HJ
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2007 - 10:31pm PT
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According to Bonnie Kamps, Bob probably didn't have a favorite route in the Needles, and she thinks many of his 59 first ascents in the Needles wouldn't qualify as favorites of his. Bonnie relates that the routes Bob climbed the most were probably those he liked best, and they are all in Tuolumne. He climbed Great Pumpkin 15 times and Aqua Knobby 8 times. The only route of his she ever heard him actually refer to as a favorite was Lucky Streaks, which he also climbed 8 times.
According to the route database at bobkamps.com, the Freak's Fright is 5.10A and the Kamps Crack on the Bell Tower is 5.10D, which would make the Kamps Crack Bob's hardest Needles first ascent. Personally, I remember the Freak's Fright as harder, but after 40 years, who knows...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2007 - 10:46pm PT
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Two shots of the Sore Thumb, a terrific route by Bob done in 1965.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Bob Kamps was quite a guy,
In the mid-70s, we were just wiry teenagers learning to work the crimps and smears out at Stony Point and we often saw the gray-haired guy edging about with polished aplomb: of course it was Kamps.
Just before he died, I had been doing some repping at the Phoenix bouldering contest and as I was leaving the motel, packing up my car, I spotted him walking out of the room next to mine. He didn't really know me, but I hailed him “you are Bob Kamps!”, and in a jolly manner he replied by asking me out to breakfast: sadly I had to hightail it 15 hours to another gig, a couple states northward.
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