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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 13, 2007 - 02:23pm PT
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Who remembers what happened to the long-time sale reps (Jim Donni being one) from Patagonia???????
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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Whoa. There's some serious hostility towards Yvon floating around here.
First, if you don't like how expensive their stuff is, don't buy it. It does last longer than a lot of other stuff, so maybe in the long run, some of their organic and post-consumer recycled items come close to having a little enviromental impact as buying a Wal-mart castoff at the thrift store.
Second, so he gets free advertising from athletes. So what? It's not like he forced anyone to wear the stuff.
Third, as far as the ambassadors go, it's not like they had contracts for life. I respect Ron, Lynn and Katie and would think it unfortunate that they wouldn't get some type of sponsorship, as they have contibuted significantly to the community. But they are not owed this. Dean on the other hand, probably cooked his own goose. That was not a case of any publicity is good publicity for Patagonia.
Finally, while they do market to yuppies and trustafarians, and maybe there is some hypocrisy going on, there are far worse companies around. They do give back to the environment, and I'd say made far more than token efforts to be responsible.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:04pm PT
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I don't think I'd put me in the worshipper category. I think I own only two Patagonia items - a wool sweater I've had for 20 years and an organic cotton jean jacket that I got at the outlet store about ten years ago.
I'm just trying to say that while they are not perfect, there are far worse companies out there, and that some of this criticism seems unjustified.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
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I wasn't directing my comments specifically at your post -- there were a number of other posters that seemed to be criticizing Patagonia simply because their stuff is too expensive. And I don't particularly see how anyone could defend a decision to let Dean go. The others certainly, but Dean brought this completely on himself.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:41pm PT
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I don't know, Magritte, it kind of sounded hostile to me when you called Yvon a vampire and the little bugger.
No doubt there's a certain amount of marketing spin in Patagonia's environmental policy. No doubt Patagonia has an environmental impact as a company, they all do. Is their environmental impact profile higher or lower than a similar size/type company? I don't know the answer to that but I think that's the question to ask.
As for the "ambassadors" losing their jobs... oh well, it happens. Maybe some former Enron employees would have some advice for them.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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DaftRat: "How could you ever trust a little Frenchman from Burbank?"
Well, if you're referring to YC, he was born in the U.S., to Quebecois parents. Which means, history and facts being what they are, that his ancestors arrived in North America before 1760. Long before most of ours. I believe he speaks at least some French (Quebecois), but that no more makes him French than speaking Hebrew makes someone Israeli.
And don't forget YC's very impressive climbing record.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:06pm PT
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A couple of years back I saw a Patagonia add w/ Dean Potter. It had him quoted as saying that he had never voted, but this year he will because he see's all the places he loves being destroyed. They had a picture of him looking very noble and just. My first thought was..."well maybe if you had been voting for a few years you could have helped prevent all this."
Now they have most of their adds tied in with enviromentalism. I am all for the environment, but how good can it be for the environment when a company's products are produced in countries that have little or no regulation on environmental impact or little regard for human rights ( like worker's rights)?
Yvon sold out when he started knocking climbing a few years back, but still made a boat load of money off it. Rock climbing is (was?) Patagonia's life blood.
-JR
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:11pm PT
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Hey, I live in North Fork half the time. What do you know about Fresno Dome?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
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Quote:Finally, while they do market to yuppies and trustafarians, and maybe there is some hypocrisy going on, there are far worse companies around. They do give back to the environment, and I'd say made far more than token efforts to be responsible.
What's your point. Better to give than to be taxed on it.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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Fresno Dome: Called Wamello by the local Indians, first discovered in 1834 by a Swedish traveler named Gus who witnessed a human sacrifice and then left....Oh you mean climbing knowledge?? Honestly, I have never climbed out there. I seem to be drawn to other things in the area and never get out there. Where at in North Fork do you live we might be neibhors ( Holy @#$% how do you spell that word???) Do you climb out there a lot?
Edit: HeHe let's hijack this thread!! All about NF now Haha.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:22pm PT
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ScaredSilly said A friend on mine who is into his 50s and climbs 5.14 lives off of very little. He has a job in a climbing store and makes enough so that he can climb. Yeah he gets a little free gear here and there but for the most part he pays for everything himself.
I know the guy you are talking about. It can only be the one and only, MB. Started climbing with him in the 70's. He was my ropegun on many climbs. He is one hell of a guy.
They dont give out sponsorhsips based on someone being a hell of a guy. It may not be exclusive, but it aint inclusive.
Largo said, They had more meaningful relationships with their dogs than you did with you wife or boyfriend.
Doood. I know you really are tryin to paint a picture here but really? bestiality?
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
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Haha ... you want to keep the bestkeptsecret under your hat. Do you know the Cascadel area? I love North Fork so much I want to make up a I Love North Fork song. We should start a "who could you picture at the Buckhorn" thread! How did that place get missed with all the climbers that go to the Valley? I mean, woah.
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JEM
Social climber
so cal
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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Random -
Patagonia no longer sells climbing gear in their home store, Ventura, CA.
JEM
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
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They no longer sell climbing gear, period!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:50pm PT
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re:
Who remembers what happened to the long-time sale reps (Jim Donni being one) from Patagonia???????
right, who remembers their mass firing?
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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Ray's right. They should'v seen it, maybe weren't looking for it, or mayby didn't think they would get the same treatment they give regular employees.
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:00pm PT
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A. C. Is that what "Cascadel" means? Interesting
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Blanco
Sport climber
Calgary, AB
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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If this is the case that Patagonia has released their Climbing Ambassadors, then it likely is not as simple as it appears. After being in the industry since the mid-80's the one thing I can say is that the industry is really small by numbers and financially. Climbing gear just does not bring in a great deal of money. Snow sports, water sports, fly fishing, biking, and almost any other sport than climbing make financial sense. Think how mush it costs to go skiing – even backcountry – it is not an inexpensive outing. Skis @ $1000.00 – think how long you could climb on that! The most expensive climbing gear are ice tools $250.00/each and they certainly do not move off shelves like new boards. No matter how hard you try to stay on the climbing path, it just is not cost effective if you are a company that needs to finance itself. BDEL is going hard into the ski area, as it certainly has a great deal of money in it, all you need to do is prove your gear is good and you can gain a piece of it within a short time period. Climbing and climbers need years of proof and reliance in order to justify spending a few hundred dollars. Skiers spend that much on a day at the resorts. It’s not hard to see that this may happen and it may happen more with the core gear companies. Insurance rates are becoming problematic on profit. Yes, the profit word – all climbers need money, some are willing to live with little, so long as their life-style is in the front. If you want to make six-figures, the climbing industry just is not it, but if you want to make a decent living with great freedom and the time and ability to do what you love – that’s what the industry is about. If you do want to make all the money you can – start a climbing company and work your tail off for years and you may have a chance at making some great money – but you’ll likely hate climbing and all that goes with it.
Think about numbers – maybe five to ten million climbers in North America? That’s probably about the same number of skiers or surfers in California. Patagonia is a clothing company not a core climbing company, no matter how much we appreciate Y.C.’s efforts in his past. They are following a company plan to keep it on top of their niche. However his former company no BDEL is a core climbing company and having it lose any athletes would be a big blow to the industry.
Another climber thing is that we tend to use stuff until the bitter end – Steve Petro wrote about his 20yr old wool PG sweater and I’m sure he still wears it cause it still works. Not many skiers would be keen on something that is 2 years old.
To all the PG ambassadors – good wishes on the next stage, as we all have been there or will be.
JD LeBlanc
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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While I'm flattered to be mistaken for Petro and wish I could climb cracks that well, that's a different SteveP.
But yes I still have that sweater because even though it was about $150 new, it's been all over the world with me and through stuff would have long ago shredded or melted a fleece(made by Patagonia or anyone else).
P.S. There's no way there is anywhere near 5 million climbers. 500,000 might be more like it. Just makes your point more valid.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:26pm PT
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I love it when someone, uttering in a contemptuous tone, says, "Whatever you think, you're wrong - in the end it's ALL about the bottom line...
Well.
Congrat-u-f#cking-lations.
OF COURSE it's all about the bottom line. What else would it be about? You NEED profit to live. Profit is not a bad word, people. It's the whole point. Why else would anyone work, at all, ever, but for the ability to purchase your shelter, food, fun, and whatever (otherwise known as money)?
Patagonia is still perfectly within their rights to use athletes who agree to sell their product. And why on Earth would they keep them after they've outlived their usefullness?
You can outlive usefulness by breaking laws (or the intent of the law, if we're talking specifically about DP), and by no longer being identified by the community as being super inspirational (thru age, boredom, or just not climbing anymore), and therefore no longer be useful as a marketing tool. Why, then, would YC keep you on?
It ain't charity, folks. In case you haven't applied a little critical thought to how this goes, this is what I imagine the contract talk to go like:
YC: Hi. Right now, you seem to be someone who has the right image to the community to sell our clothes. How 'bout if you keep on climbing and doing what you're already doing, but with some free clothes, travel costs and a picture-taking crew?
Athlete: Uh, OK.
YC: Right. When you're no longer appealing or fresh to the community - say, in 5 years (sooner if you do something dumb enough to bring bad press to Patagonia) you can keep all the free stuff, but we'll just shake hands, wish you a good life, and stop sending you free stuff. You see, we're giving you free stuff for a while, 'cause it's going to sell the stuff for us. We're okay with that. In fact, that's what makes it worth giving you the free stuff. Is that pretty clear and okay with you?
Athlete: Wait. So all I have to do is do what I was going to already, but you might take my picture, and I get some clothes that are pretty decent quality and last a long time? In effect, you're just going to make my life a little easier for a while?
YC: Right.
Athlete: And so then, when I don't fit the direction your company is going and trying to portray, everything's cool - and we dissolve the business relationship? And I get to keep the clothes?
YC: Uh huh.
Athlete: Cool. I'm a size Medium pant, size Large Top. I'll take one of everything, please. You can catch me slacklining in Yosemite for the next 6 months if you need to reach me. After that, I'm going on a 6 year road trip - I'll check in annually in January or so.
YC: Okay, have fun!
Trust me, folks - neither party is confused or being taken advantage of.
-Aaron
ps: Still a bad-ass rant, Largo.
pss: And you're right, whoever said that the Pro-Deal program isn't for testing gear.
edit ps: good post, Blanco! I agree.
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