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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Snooky,
I just looked at all your post and it is all about Bachar... I am just wondering, are you gay? Your obsession makes me think of suppressed impulses.
Anyway, I just want you to know that whatever you say in response still does not explain why this is the only subject you have written about. Why is that? Is there nothing else important in your life besides my boyfriend? No other opinions except about what Bachar does? Not even political, religious, or anything else? Sorry, but something is wrong with this picture.
Love,
Anastasia
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Focusing on just one question—should the bolts be chopped?—here are some thoughts…
I don’t think Maestri summited in 59.
I do think the style of his 1970 route sucks balls. I wish it hadn’t happened.
I do think that Josh and Zack are badass alpinists (or bitchin’ or whatever).
I am impressed that they were able to eliminate (i.e., avoid) so much of Maestri’s trash.
That being said, chopping these bolts would be pretty silly. Let’s say Josh and Zack had chopped the line of all the bolts they did not need. When people better than Josh and Zack come along (and they will) and eliminate another 30 feet of bolted climbing, or run it out a bit further between bolts they clip, should we then re-chop the route? And when still better folks eliminate more bolts or aid, should we then re-re-chop the route?
There is tons of stuff that I can third class and tons more that I can really run out (and Micah, Josh, Zack, et al. can do way more than I can). Should I chop the bolts I can skip just because now, with new gear and new standards, I can do without them? What about folks who still use them?
Who gets to decide how much, or how little, fixed gear should go in? The fricking first ascensionist, that’s who. This is not a case of a route that was put up in bad style last weekend; the route is 35+ years old. Leave it alone. If you want to climb it without the bolts, that is badass. But removing the bolts on this route is just a silly pissing contest, no matter how cool Josh and Zack are—even the best of people come up with stupid ideas, and Josh, Zack, and all their friends defending the idea of chopping the bolts should take a moment to reflect on how silly the idea of chopping the bolts was.
I should no more remove bolts I can avoid using than I should add bolts where I want them. It would suck for me to remove bolts or fixed gear on longstanding route just because I can solo it; and it would suck to add bolts to the Bachar-Yearian just because I don’t have the sack to climb it.
If the route was done recently (say someone puts in a bolt ladder with a bolt every 3 feet just so anyone can climb El Cap—ok chop it) it would be different. This route is done my friends. Leave it.
Again, I have very strong opinions about climbing style and climbing ethics (and those opinions are much closer to Josh et al. than not). I think the 1970 route is a travesty of sorts, but the first ascensionist decides how much or how little fixed gear goes in, not me.
Brian
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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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Brian, thanks for that post, I think most people here would agree with that.
Is the fact that Josh and partner decided to chop without giving a flying f*#k about what locals (the real ones) or the greater international community (let's face it, this is Cerro Torre we're talkin'bout, an icon in the history of mountaineering) thought about it that pisses me off.
They didn't chop ONLY because they couldn't. Not because they realized how wrong it would have been to do it.
darod.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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I don't know much about this subject, but weren't the bolts put up during the original FA of Cerro Torre? If that is the case, than the bolts have historical significance and should not be touched.
Touching them is like tearing up the original U.S. Constitution because it is not on paper. I really hope they are still there respected and untouched.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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From my perspective, the only grounds for not chopping this particular line is the fact that it is one of our most storied sagas and misadventures in a debate/mystery which has raged for decades - it's now firmly a part of our collective history. That and the fact there will never be consensus around such a high profile endeavor. I agree if it were the reverse with Josh and Zack putting them in today with a Hilti and a solar charger - I'd say yank'em. But this is an internationally shared history and any unilateral decision on the part of U.S. climbers would likely be viewed as us exporting a harsh Nicholsonian doctrine with retaliation on a high-profile U.S. route like the Nose not entirely inconceivable. I would be curious to know, though, what percentage of the parties heading up it are commercially guided and what role does that play in any discussion around chopping? If it's significant, then what percentage is with local Argentinean guides?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I stayed at Clifford's last night but still couldn't get him to post (wait! Should I rephrase that?) anyway it turns out that while his initial reaction was that an attempt to remove the bolts amounted to an assault on historical artifacts, his OWN artifact, the regulator hammered off the compressor by Bridwell which he purchased at the AAC auction for (as memory serves) $800, was buried somewhere in a box in his enormous garage.
I'm not criticizing. It served a charitable cause and Mike is my friend, but I can't help but be amused at the irony. I have to admit that after seeing the film Cumbre! at Telluride at the same showing attended by both Mike and Jello twenty years ago this May, I too would want such an artifact.
The footage of Marco Pedrini soloing the Torre was THE most inspiring climbing feat I've ever seen and at the top he climbs onto the compressor and pantomimes revving a motorcycle!
For some reason knowing that he fell to his death less than 2 years later was deeply moving.
Pedrini used those very bolts to create brilliance!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Erik (Alpinist Magazine) wrote
"They used some of the belay bolts and fixed anchors. Josh stated that "chopping belay bolts and replacing them with two fixed nuts and a sling doesn't change much."
It sounds from that reporting that the Team didn't use the bolt ladder on the headwall at all, but only the belays. It's a little unclear because "fixed anchors" can mean belay anchors and it can mean lead bolts. Josh's statement about chopping belay bolts gives me the idea that they only used the belay bolts.
This only matters inasmuch as the more of the route the team used, the more hypocritical it would be to chop.
After all, if the elite are tempted to jump on the bolt ladder when time and weather become tight (and that's a huge factor in Cerro Torre ascents), then how can they speak of erasing what they chose to enjoy?
So, if indeed they didn't use the lead bolts and could have used natural anchors, that, at least, shows some consistency in vision.
I have to admire the many well spoken thoughts expressed by fine climbers on this thread. This medium of community communication is valuable. We are managing to evolve beyond the violent sprayfests on the past, and consider resolving differences with wisdom and understanding. Wish our leaders would try that.
Peace
Karl
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Ron,
I'll never forget that movie. The existence of those bolts for the filming almost justifies their presence. Was that frickin' amazing or what? Still one of the three best climbing movies I've ever seen.
Mal
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beefy
Trad climber
Adelaide, Australia
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what movie was it in??
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Now that's a film I'd like to see! I see it's availabe in the EU somewhere as a VHS tape, someone needs to port it over to DVD. Anyone with a copy know who put it out or owns the rights?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I'm with DMT, Brian et al on this. But especially Dingus.
It's history, there is no undoing it, it reminds us of all kinds of things about our selves.
Another, humbler example. I wouldn't advocate anybody putting up a new route in Otto's style (Otto's Route, Co Nat Mon) but erasing it would be lunacy. You climb it now and you can't help being in the head of an eccentric (from what will soon be a hundred years ago) climbing at the level of his time, more or less. Drilling a pipe ladder up a six hundred foot tower might not be the way we do it today, but anyone who has worked hard on a long route can identify with that drive and tenacity.
Then when he took his love up his creation to propose marriage, she said "No."
We need to remember these stories.
Didn't we learn various things from Maestri's approach?
Anastasia's point about the sacrosanct nature of the FA is hard to argue with, too.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I read Rolo's article [linked above] a while back, and it is excellent. It should be required reading for all who post in this thread.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Healyje, what's a "Nicholsonian" doctrine?
"You want to chop the bolts? You CAN'T HANDLE the bolts!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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An expeditionary hybrid of the Monroe Doctrine and Ken Nichol's Connecticut Yankee proclivities.
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alpinist_magazine
climber
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To respond to Karl:
Wharton and Smith skipped all the lead bolts until the final three pitches of the headwall (and obviously the last pitch of soloing to the near-summit), where weather forced them to start clipping.
By "fixed anchor" in my post, I meant a permanent belay/rappel station that is not bolted.
When their variations to the route necessitated making gear anchors, they did. When their climbing brought them to a bolt or fixed belay, they used it. Hope that clarifies the issue. Best,
Erik
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Thanks for the rapid clarification Erik.
Without wanting to beat ya'll over the head with it, I have to note that your initial clarification left out all mention of the team using the lead bolts on the last pitches, even though it was an issue raise, while including info on the use of the belay bolts.
Even in your second clarification, which is much appreciated, you somehow can't mention "They used the bolt ladders on the final pitches." but leave it implied.
Why not spit it out? They set out to erase a route that they later embraced so they could make the summit. If even these elite, who seemingly disapprove of the route, are willing to use the ladders that they would erase, let's learn whatever lesson in there.
None of us are perfect and so even this fine, bold and notable ascent has a certain flaw to it.
Perhaps not as bad as my many flaws, but I don't want it to go unnoticed until nobody is talking about chopping the route further, (even if it's only theoretical because of the work involved.)
Peace
Karl
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Honest question - how many out there dream of one day trying to summit Cerro Torre ?
I know I do - I think that is one of the most beautiful spires I have ever seen...simply incredible, that such should exist and beckon...
chop, don't chop...common ground is still there somewhere ?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I'm waiting for Global Warming to turn it into the El Cap of the Southern Hemisphere.
Sure the pictures are breathtaking, but when the wind is blowing like a hurriicane and the face is plastered with ice, it adds a dimension of misery that I'm too soft for!
But when we can camp on the face like Pete Zabrok and monkey call in the mornings across the sunny stone, I'm there.
If planes are still flying cheap
Peace
Karl
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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nice karl- i love that you are all mentally prepared to tackle the worlds most brutal summits, just as soon as they are more casual!
also, regarding your comments on the alpinist guys comments, this is my favorite line of all:
"where weather forced them to start clipping".
whether or not you are climbing in a certain style is now a weather dependent, game day decision? seems pretty convenient, good thing the party ahead of them didn't have the "vision" to chop the rig!
(just funnin- i know some people take this banter a bit more seriously than i do)
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OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
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"Riley said:
"You guys all suck picking on grammar and spelling."
I've always wondered how comeone can say that? The communications going on here is in written form. If someone can't lucidly present something here, then it should be perfectly okay to give them cr*p."
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Happens every time - critique grammar and spelling and then type in "comeone". Is that porno lingo? So here's some cr*p right back atcha.
Malcolm, I'd like to see you answer your own questions. I do not have the answer. I'd leave Bridwel's bolts. But I don't own it and will never be there. If I was I don't think I'd have the time or energy to chop because I'd probably be freezing my balls off or trying to outrun the next storm or bitching at my frozen ropes.
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