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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 10:25pm PT
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BTW I like all the condescending, passive aggressive statements above. Countdown until those same posters complain about people on the other side not wanting a productive debate.
The above are not "passive aggressive statements," they are parody of the misinformation and patently ridiculous assertions repeatedly made by anti-gunners.
Here is a shooting that doesn't fit the narrative. So, what do we get? Well, pretty much silence. Had this kid used an AR-15, anti-gunners would be all over it as yet another reason why "no such thing should be available to civilians." But let the kid use a simple handgun that is (and always will be) readily available to civilians, yet doing MASSIVE damage with it, well, we hear crickets from the anti-gunner crowd.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
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No, that link says cops commit crimes 6-9 times more than CCW holders. I'd feel safer around a uniformed cop in a bad neighborhood than a CCW holder.
Guess that depend on what you mean by "safer." I didn't imply "as your bodyguard." The context was in response to your claims about how Ramboesque CCW holders are. You are "safer" around a CCW holder in the important and relevant sense that you are FAR less likely to have them "go off" around you than ANY other measurable demographic in America.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 10:30pm PT
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I never said anything of the sort. I did basically call out people for being selfish pricks for fighting any new gun control laws so they can easily get the guns they want, while leaving kids in schools and people who don't want to carry out to dry.
And there's the typical false-cause argument.
Please explain what NEW law would have kept this incident from happening. Please explain how IT would have been the one that would have kept this kid from intentionally breaking the whole HOST of other, already-existing laws he already broke.
I'm all for laws that have a chance of actually having a causal relation to what they are supposed to prevent! And people that decry laws that are suggested for NO other reason than to appear to be "doing something" are not "pricks".
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 10:37pm PT
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who are the wrong people?
As with the CCW requirements above: (the higher capacity, more easily concealed the weapon the more control there should be around it)
completed a training course (I think this should be universal for any gun. I see too many yahoos resting their finger on the triggers. I'm teaching gun safety to my kids with their freakin nerf guns because I want those good habits instilled whey they get to real guns, by the way you could shoot someones eye out kid.
haven't been convicted of a felony (no brainer for violent felonies)
haven't been diagnosed as mentally ill (again a no brainer, at least for a period of time after a serious diagnosis.)
haven't lost your gun rights (no brainer, but it takes universal background checks and very stiff punishments for bypassing it for this to work better)
have to be at least 21 years old (I'd be fine with this in general.) I bought my first gun right after I turned 18 and in hindsight I wasn't responsible enough to own it. I did not take a safety class first and had no idea what I was doing because my parents didn't own guns. And I was about average in responsibility for my age, a lot of my peers were less responsible than I was. This is just anecdotal and opinion, but it's how I feel.
The Newtown shooter was infuriating to me. His stupid gun nut mother let a kid, who was probably Level 2 on the Autism Spectrum Disorder, play violent video games, taught him how to shoot, and left her guns where he could get them. That's a textbook example of who shouldn't have guns. And yes laws could have made a difference. If it was the law she should have kept her guns locked up (safe storage law) it may have prevented that horrible tragedy. I wouldn't dream of leaving any of my guns where my kids could get at them.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 18, 2018 - 10:40pm PT
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I'm not going to bother debating you madbolter if you either don't bother to comprehend much of what I write or misconstrue it on purpose. Instead of trying to be right all the time, why don't you listen to what other people are saying?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 11:04pm PT
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I'm not going to bother debating you madbolter if you either don't bother to comprehend much of what I write or misconstrue it on purpose. Instead of trying to be right all the time, why don't you listen to what other people are saying?
I guess, right back atcha. You clearly stated: "Or let's make sure everyone is armed. Hey that's what some people feel makes them safer. Never mind the statistics that show that people who concealed carry are actually more likely to get shot. Probably thru more risk taking and things they probably could have deescalated through talking."
I called you out for straw-manning the gun-rights side of the debate. NOBODY is advocating the "make sure than everyone is armed."
I called you out for never providing actual citations for stats supporting your claim ABOUT CCW holders being more likely to get shot. Still waiting on that one; I don't believe it, knowing CCW holders that I do.
I called you out for speculating about some Ramboesque attitude on the part of those that carry guns, when you claimed that "probably" they are more likely to just draw than talk! That one's ridiculous on the face of it.
ALL your claims (and others).
So, please explain how I'm "misreading" you.
I certainly try to be charitable, but in this case I don't think that there was room for "misinterpretation," and I wasn't going to stand by silently for ANY part of the misinformation and speculation you've been posting.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 11:13pm PT
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the pro-gun crowd are so thrilled with this incident its as if they all got together and paid for it to happen just so they could circle jerk...
What a ridiculous statement. How about exhibiting a shred of intellectual honesty and admitting that ones like this really are not going to be stopped by more legislation?
And what does "common sense gun control" even mean??? That's as ridiculous as "assault rifle." YOU can't define either, and neither can legislators. And that is why debate continues to rage.
You want to take a statistic and spin it to support your particular interpretations of what legislation SHOULD be to be "common sense."
I've repeatedly asked on this and other threads, "Please define exactly what 'common sense gun control' means, and please explain exactly why we should believe that the proposed legislation will have a measurable impact."
Last time, I even said, "I'll start. I'm all for universal background checks; eliminate all transfer loopholes. If you transfer a gun to somebody else by ANY means, that person should have the pass the same background check they have to pass at Cabelas or Walmart." As I said, I don't think that it would have any measurable impact on gun crime of any sort, but I despise exceptions to what are otherwise good laws. I do believe that people should have to demonstrate competency to drive and to carry a gun, given how densely packed we are as a society.
But, you know, texting while driving is illegal, and people here in Colorado do it CONSTANTLY. I seriously don't see a shred of evidence to even suggest that the law has any preventative effect.
So, I'll ask again: Exactly what does "common sense gun control" even mean, and what effect would proposed legislation have?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 19, 2018 - 12:20am PT
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^^^ Yeah. Good luck with that.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2018 - 04:14am PT
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Moose’s position is not an easy one to take with all the false patriotic ‘Guns are American’ rhetoric flying around these days. Standing up to the attack, attack, attack tactics of gun proponents used all the time now is an uphill battle for certain but not an unworthy one.
And using walls of words amounting to ‘don’t take away my 2nd amendment rights because I’m scared and brave all at the same time, and it’s in the constitution’ or calling out peaceful protesters as being subversive or terrorists is straight from the McCarthy/Trump handbook and doesn’t require a lot of courage. Also not likely to stop the Davids from standing up to the Goliath.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 19, 2018 - 05:36am PT
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...calling out peaceful protesters as being subversive or terrorists is straight from the McCarthy/Trump handbook and doesn’t require a lot of courage
You read the title of this thread?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 19, 2018 - 07:17am PT
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My position is pretty close to Moose's. While I don't think we can put the firearm genie back in the bottle, the current gun situation in the US is contrary to what the Second Amendment provides. To madbolter's point, it's not just AR15s. No kid should ever be able to get his or her hands on a gun outside of a firing range or a well supervised hunting trip. I care not a whit if was a 'just' handgun. In fact, prior to D.C. v. Heller, which overruled years of precedent (thanks Scalia), there was no Constitutional right to a handgun.
I don't hear crickets. I hear a building storm.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 19, 2018 - 08:14am PT
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No kid should ever be able to get his or her hands on a gun outside of a firing range or a well supervised hunting trip.
And I absolutely agree. How do you stop it?
You can prosecute this dad, and we certainly should, imo. Will that stop it? Certainly not.
To the "hollow" sound of my agreeing to universal background checks, what do you WANT? What would it take for you to recognize compromise thinking? What I've expressed is, simply: I cannot tell what anti-gunners actually WANT with "common sense gun control." And, still, even to this moment, there's no attempt to explain or define that phrase.
I said, "I'll start," and I did. What's really "hollow" is the sound of silence on the substance following that.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 19, 2018 - 08:49am PT
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Actually I agree with Madbolter on a couple of things
I agree that passing a national law requiring all firearms sold at gun shows or even privately like right now through any newspaper in the country to have to undergo background checks would not reduce mass murder
I agree that the concert, nightclub and school shooting while they kill more people quickly
are nothing compared to the one on one murders all day and night of people who know each other
I agree that anyone who really wants to buy a gun can easily find a way to do it, falsify, get a straw buyer, etc
The high school kid who murdered ten people at school yesterday and could not legally buy a gun but simply took his fathers guns
I agree that gun deaths are simply the acceptable result of living in America
And that we really just need to cool down and not wring our hands over every mass murder
The US is not Australia, England, Norway, Germany or Canada
The Second Amendment has insured that we absolutely will not change our laws as those countries have
In short, there is nothing meaningful that we can do to mitigate mass murder
so let the "thoughts and prayers" continue to go out, over and over and over
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 19, 2018 - 09:53am PT
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In short, there is nothing meaningful that we can do to mitigate mass murder
Each murder is different with different root causes. As such there is no solution that fits them all. Hell, Governments kill millions and simply re-lable it as acceptable or even good(Victory!). Happens all over the planet, every day and night, rain or shine. Stones,clubs,fists,fire,poison,blades,guns,fission,fusion,etc.
The only tiny thing we can control is how soft of a target do we want to be as individuals.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 19, 2018 - 09:59am PT
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The only tiny thing we can control is how soft of a target do we want to be as individuals.
This is the common sense the left lacks.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 19, 2018 - 11:06am PT
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Amen
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 19, 2018 - 12:03pm PT
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thoughts and prayers
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 19, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
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You want some "common sense" gun laws?
OK
How about keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and keep yer finger off the trigger until yer ready to shoot.
Anything more is attempting to legislate the toothpaste back into the tube.
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