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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 12, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
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Tarbuster.
The audience is in a state of serious enthrallment...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 12, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
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Every time I turn these on, I cannot put them down until they are finished.
I'm transfixed. Her performance here is Manna.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 12, 2018 - 02:37pm PT
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If women were required to free solo unconsolidated rime ice over loose vertical ground through the night with broken ice tools to save their babies, would they do it?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 12, 2018 - 04:05pm PT
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I'm glad, Kevin, that you breezed by my poetic-rhetorical device just one post overhead there, which was little more than a cheap shot, illustrating my romantic leanings.
I would've been disappointed. Not even so much meant as bait (I'd guess it's been tried before), and in the common sense, not a question and truly rhetorical.
(though entirely hypothetical, I believe, reflective of what women are capable of summoning from themselves, when truly meaningful circumstances call for it)
.......................................
My buddy Jane, did at one time free-solo regularly, though not at her limit. You know, 5.7+ and that kind of jazz. When she once stayed un-roped and did a 5 to 7 pitch 5.9 in Meteora Greece, a climb containing occasionally wiggly cobbles, with an off-width crux, she did so out of spite for some Germans who didn't bring her along on one of their coveted 5.11+ FAs. She bagged the first free-solo that route: Pillar of Dreams, which I had climbed with her prior and she had guided a whole bunch.
Not what I would call chick-brained, as retaliation schemes go, but a testosterone (some women have a dab more than others) fueled expression of what? Angst in response to betrayal?
After that, Stateside once again, she'd regularly do the Bastille Crack, and her husband suggested she knock that sh#t off, if the two of them were truly serious about having a child together.
So she did!
.....................................
I'm sure Ed will be back here to play with you this evening.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 12, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
I recall one of the Bangles, maybe Michael Steele, a woman, (née Susan Nancy Thomas), their bass player, or maybe it was Vicki Peterson, guitarist, in an interview once cited Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds as an influence. Lot of good stuff in that interview. Heard it in the mid-80s on KROCK.
Yeah well, I liked the Go Gos too!
(Please, no more cracks about The Monkeys, people)
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 12, 2018 - 04:40pm PT
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Yes, I'm going to pull up something from Don Juan's Reckless Daughter in a bit.
Got it here on vinyl, double album, may have to play all of it to select the tune I want. Not really rocking, more spatial-ethereal.
Nothing but work, work, work over here, I'm telling you!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 12, 2018 - 05:02pm PT
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^^^
Ha ha. Good one.
I played some of her Mingus album on the jazz thread. Twisted is a lot like The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 12, 2018 - 07:00pm PT
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I was looking for the passage from HUD:
Women just like being around something dangerous part of the time. From the script:
Lonnie: Lonesome? He [Hud] can get more women than anybody.
Homer: That ain't necessarily much and it ain't necessarily company. Women just like being around something dangerous part of the time. Even Hud can get lonesome once in a while.
..................................
This one's not a bad companion clip, though Jennifer Neal isn't going for that bait:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 12, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
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From Sex and War, Malcolm Potts and Thomas Hayden, page 2:
In the pages to come, we will show that for most of history and prehistory, small groups of men who were prepared to attack their neighbors and steal their resources, and who could seduce or coerce women for sex, ended up having more offspring. Women, meanwhile, were more likely to improve their reproductive success – to have more children survive to reproduce themselves – by aligning themselves with successfully violent men rather than by joining raids and risking death themselves.
Footnote on page 2:
In a 2008 study of 28 populations over 300 years, British researchers Rebecca Sear and Ruth Mace found that the early death of a father often had "surprisingly little effect" on their offspring's survival, while a mother's death significantly increased childhood mortality. In evolutionary terms, fathers are more expendable than mothers, and thus can afford to take more risks.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
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Just checking in, so:
Heavy Metal = the rockin'est
Free soloing = the climbingest
XY = the badassessest
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 12, 2018 - 10:38pm PT
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I'm sure Ed will be back here to play with you this evening.
no, just got back from the Robbins' memorial and not in the mood to feed Kevin's trolling life work of "simplifying" the male/female difference. He likes to hijack every thread that even vaguely touches on this topic and then spam it to death with his opinion.
somethings aren't simple, even if you insist they are.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 13, 2018 - 09:47am PT
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sorry you feel belittled, warbler, don't know how that could happen as I certainly do not intend to belittle you, rather, just argue a point. So don't worry your pretty little head about whether or not I respect your intelligence (but don't forget that while you were pulling down hard routes in the Valley in your youth I was pulling down equivalently hard science in mine, and we both accomplished a respectable reputation in our areas of concentration, I got the Ph.D. for mine, if we're into defining accomplishment, mine intellectual).
the point being that the playing field for women and others has not been level with respect to white-male privilege, you are a white male, and used to having those privileges, and now you are grieving the questioning of those privileges and the advantages they bestow.
my simple point is that if women and others have not been given equal opportunity in whatever area of comparison you'd propose, the records of their accomplishments do not demonstrate anything about "true ability."
your simple theory falls down because your assumption that women would have achieved as much as men if they were able, and since they haven't, you conclude they are not able.
that's a relatively simple point, but comparing women's opportunities to men's one might find that men had many more opportunities, while women did not (and women were more likely to have been discouraged in any of these endeavors).
you have not demonstrated that women have not been disadvantaged (and studies would argue that they have been) while men have not had privilege (which studies would argue that they have).
Rock 'n' Roll is such a strange thing to argue about simply because the variance of subjective opinion, taste in music varies greatly.
I hardly accept your metric of what the best Rock 'n' Roll is, but even if you objectified it... say what rock bands made the most money (or at least produced the most revenue) you have to deal with the idea that the "Record Industry" not only bet on the economic viability of the bands, but actively promoted their vision of Rock 'n' Roll to the audiences they felt had the most resources to spend on their product. That has been traditionally white male teenagers. So obviously the "Record Industry" produced a product that that audience would buy.
It is argued that "Stairway to Heaven" is the "greatest" rock song produced, but it has a very odd theme centered on a stereotype. One can say "it's just a rock song" but then, nothing is accidentally anything in that business.
Accomplishing anything in the music business vaguely resembling "success" takes with financial support of the industry.
Where that is not forthcoming, success is hard to come by regardless of how rad you shred.
You have research that supports your underlying assumption that guy and gal bands enjoyed equal support from the industry?
I think not.
You have research to support that the industry judgement on a band's financial viability is unbiased?
I think not.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 13, 2018 - 11:08am PT
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If a woman is brilliant in a profession that is dangerous and she becomes a mother, how old do her children have to be before it is acceptable for her to return to work? This is the question that James Ballard had to face after his wife, the mountaineer Alison Hargreaves, died while climbing K2 seven years ago, when their children were aged four and six.
In May 1995, Hargreaves became the first woman to make it to the summit of Everest alone, unsupported and without any artificial oxygen. She received almost universal praise. "One of the greatest climbs in history," declared the front page of the Times. But, just three months later, having successfully reached the summit of K2, Hargreaves died on the way down - and was criticised in the media for having "left" her two children.
And the criticism was way more harsh than it is when men die during the same circumstances. This is cultural...
Nothing wrong about her climbing ambition or soul as the Warbler wants to frame it...
So, whether the Warbler and feminists like it or not... (these polemical details are really stupid, but I will play the game with the Warbler for a while...)
Not that "don't worry your pretty little head" is any better...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 13, 2018 - 11:58am PT
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I vaguely bristled (raised an eyebrow) at pretty little head also. But the rest of Ed's post was good, as was Kevin's.
The Allison Hargreaves reference is a good one, Marlow.
I was trying to come up with her name/accomplishments and throw her in with Catherine Freer and Steph Davis.
I was never quite sure whether the criticism posthumously leveled at her originated/proliferated more in Europe, or in America.
Slightly off-topic, but from what I can tell, we do a lot more hand wringing in America over parents taking risks than they do in Europe?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 13, 2018 - 12:20pm PT
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You didn’t address my question about how many new pitches have been led first by women in Yosemite.
I did in another post, you might have forgotten, and not only that, I trended the data and predicted when the fraction of FA's put up by men would equal those of women. That's the direction things are going.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 13, 2018 - 07:45pm PT
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Bonnie Raitt & John Lee
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Bonnie Raitt and Al Green
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Bonnie & BB King
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Bonnie Raitt, at the end of the piece with Al Green:
Rhythm and blues, soul music, in my opinion ... cuts every single thing ... if you play it for anybody anywhere in the world ...
... they're gonna be tappin' their feet and lookin' to get laid.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 13, 2018 - 07:53pm PT
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I had saved Ed's list to my hard drive, from 2008, retrieved from the Chick History Thread.
I'm guessing this is the same one the statistics come from?
..................................................
Ed Hartouni wrote:
Some Yosemite Valley FAs and FFAs with women team members (not all, I don't know how to resolve "Chris," etc.. in the list... any help would be appreciated...)
76 Degrees in the Shade 5.10c 2001 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Absolutely Free, Left Side 5.9 1970 Jim Bridwell Bev Johnson Mark Klemens
After Six 5.7 1965 Yvon Chouinard Ruth Schnieder
Afterburner 5.11c 1993 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Are You Hard Enough? 5.10d Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Bad to the Bone 5.9+ A4 VI 1984 Jay Smith Lidija Painkiher
Betsy Pinnacle 5.9 1970 Betsy Nelson Rick Sylvester
Big Easy 5.11d 1993 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Birds of a Feather 5.7 1975 Kevin Worrall Jane Wituchki
Blackballed 5.10b 1987 Dan McDevitt Sue Bonovich
Boneheads 5.10b 1999 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Boulderfield Gorge 5.9 1966 Royal Robbins Liz Robbins Mike Dent Victer Cowley
Bourbon Street 5.10c 1993 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Chairman Ted Scraps the Time Machine 5.10a 1987 Greg Murphy Melanie Findling
Chicken Pox 5.8 1972 Steve Wunsch Dianna Hunter
Chips Ahoy 5.12b 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Church Tower, East Arete 5.5 II 1935 Ken Adam Olive Dyer Morgan Harris
Compass Rose 5.10- 1989 Tucker Tech Lynn Wolfe
The Cow, Left 5.8 R 1970 Ken Boche Mary Bomba
The Cracker, Southwest Corner 5.5 1969 Bill Sorenson Ann Rehder
Critical Path 5.11a 1991 Clint Cummins Anne Smith
Diminishing Returns 5.10c 1990 Hal Thompkins Lin Murphy
The Dove 5.8 1975 Kevin Worrall Jane Witucki
Dreams of Thailand 5.11d Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Dromedary - The Hump 1971 Barry Bates Bev Johnson
Dynamic Doubles 5.9 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Dyslexia 5.10d A4 VI 1985 Ellie Hawkins
El Capitan, West Chimney 5.9 1937 Ethel Mae Hill Owen Williams Gordon Patten 1966 Galen Rowell Tom Fender
End of the Line 5.10c 2001 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Energizer 5.11b 1990 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Eura Mura 1983 Knez Franabcek Lidija Painkiher Igor Skamprle
Eye in the Sky 5.10b R 1985 Mark Spencer Shirley Spencer Dan Abbot David Abbot
Falcon 5.10b 1981 Chris Cantwell Larry Zulim Becky Plourd Sue Moore
Fast as a Shark 5.11 1988 Ed Collins Joan Collins Ken Ariza Tucker Tech
Fifty Crowded Variation 5.10a 1987 Clint Cummins Nancy Kerrebrock
Final Decision 5.11b 1981 Anders Lundahl Eva Selim
Fine Line 5.10a 1985 Grant Hiskes Doe DeRoss
Fish Fingers 5.11b R 1985 Jonny Woodward Maria Cranor
Five o'Clock Shadow 5.9 X 1987 Jay Smith Penny Fogel
Fly-Girls 5.11a Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
The Footstool, Right Side 5.4 R 1959 Mark Powell Beverly Powell Bill Feuerer
For Your Eyes Only (Octopussy) 5.9 A3 VI 1988 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Free Press 5.10a 1971 Galen Rowell Sibylle Hechtel
George's Secretary 5.8 1988 George Watson Jim Edmondson Kyle Edmondson Mike Forkash Nancy Beebe
Ginger Snap 5.12b 1992 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
The Girl Next Door, Left Side 5.1 1972 John Bragg Bev Johnson
Golden Needles 5.8 1979 Jim Beyer Janice Linhares
Goodrich Pinnacle, Right Side 5.9 R 1964 Royal Robbins Liz Robbins TM Herbert
Grape Race 5.9 A5 VI 1974 Charlie Porter Bev Johnson
Great Escape 5.11c 1993 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Harding Route 5.7 III 1957 Warren Harding Bea Vogel
Hell's Hollow 5.10a 1985 Ken Ariza Doe DeRoss Nick Arms Mark Carpenter
Holidays 5.8 R/X 1986 Scott Cosgrove Jenny Naquin
Home-Boys 5.11a Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Hoosier's Highway 5.10c R 1974 Steve Shea Molly Higgins Larry Bruce Lou Dawson
Hooter Alert 5.10c Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Horse Play 5.9 A3 VI 1984 Steve Grossman Sue Harrington
The Hundredth Monkey 5.11b 1990 Deanne Gray Rolland Arsons
I Don't Know 5.10a 1990 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
I Don't Remember 5.9 1990 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
The Inconsolable Buttress 5.7 A3 III 1960 Mark Powell Beverly Powell Dave Rearick
Isoceles, Left 5.9 1972 Linda Halverson Rick Sylvester
John's Other Chimney 5.4 A1 II 1953 John Ohrenschall Marry Ann Corthell
Jump for Joy 5.9 R 1967 Yvon Chouinard Joy Herron
Just Do Me 5.10d Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Just for Starters 5.10a 1992 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
The Kids are All Right 5.7 1986 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
Knuckleheads 5.10b 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Kung Pao Chicken 5.10b 1982 Dan Hare Kathy Cassidy
Laughing at the Void 5.9 A3 V 2000 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Le Bachar 5.11b 1982 John Bachar Mike Lichlinski Mari Gingery
Leaning Tower, Traverse 5.5 II 1957 Chuch Wilts Ellen Wilts G.B. Harr
Lonely Dancer 5.10c 1979 Dave Yerian Shary McVoy Bruce Morris
Lower Arch Traverse 5.3 I 1957 Krehe Ritter Mara Unterman Judy Beyers
Lunatic Fringe 5.10c 1971 Barry Bates Bev Johnson
Lunch Ledge Direct (Space Case) 5.8 A4 IV 1961 Yvon Chouinard Wally Reed 1976 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis
Lynnea's Birthday Surprise 5.10a 1986 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Mac Daddy 5.11a 2002 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Marginal 5.9 R 1970 Ken Boche Mary Bomba Joe McKeown
Mass Assault 5.9 1972 Ken Boche Dennis Hennek Judy Sterner Russ McLean Sibylle Hechtel Tim Auger Mike Farrell
Middle Cathedral Rock, Northwest Buttress 5.6 II 1953 Bill Dunmire Marj Dunmire Jack Davis Dale Webster Dick Long Dick Houston
Middle Cathedral Rock, Northwest Face III 5.7 1957 Les Overstreet Jerry Gray George Ewing 1959 Margret Young Steve Roper
Mirror, Mirror Left 5.10b R 1985 Eric Brand Jonell Geller
Moby Dick, Center 5.10a 1963 Herb Swedlund Penny Carr 1963 Frank Sacherer Steve Roper
Mother of the Future 5.11a 1989 Joel Auger Clint Cummins Nancy Kerrebrock
Movin' Like a Stud 5.10d 1978 Pat Timpson Julie Brugger Bob Crawford Dave Anderson
Movin' to Montana 5.8 1992 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
Mr. Pink-eyes 5.11d 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Mud Shark 5.8 1980 Billy Serniuk Charleen Serniuk Jack Dodalou
My Rhombus 5.10a 1986 Dan McDevitt Sue Bonovich
Mystic Mint 5.11b 1992 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Nevada Falls, Left Side 5.6 A4 II 1960 Royal Robbins Lin Ephraim
New Suede Shoes 5.10c Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
No Teats 5.10a 1986 Susan Lilly Tucker Tech
North Dome, South Face Route III 5.7 1957 Mark Powell Wally Reed 1960 Mort Hempel Irene Ortenberger Steve Roper
North Dome, Southwest Face 5.9 1968 Bev Clark Chuck Pratt
The Nose 5.9 C2 VI 5.13b 1958 Warren Harding Wayne Merry George Whitmore 1993 Lynn Hill
Nutcracker 5.8 1967 Royal Robbins Liz Robbins
Nutter Butter 5.12b 1992 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
On the Waterfront 5.9 A5 VI 1986 Steve Bosque Mike Corbett Gwen Schneider
Peter's Out 5.12 1978 Peter Croft Tami Knight
Pigs in Space 5.12 1978 Peter Croft Tami Knight Larry Zulim
Pink Panther 5.11a 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Poker Face 5.10b 1986 Dan McDevitt Sue Bonovich
Polymastia 5.10d 1994 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson
Power Failure 5.11a 1975 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis Mark Vallance
Priceless Friends 5.10a 1988 Mike McGrale Urmas Franosch Marlo Finney Marty Lewis
Pringles 5.11b 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Psycho-Betty 5.9 1989 Eric Gompper Linda Gil-Martin
Reality Check 5.10c 1976 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis
Reticent Wall 5.7 A5 VI 1995 Steve Gerberding Scott Stowe Laurie Stowe
Rixon's Pinnacle, South Face 5.8 A2 III 5.11d 1948 Chuck Wilts Ellen Wilts 1974 Tobin Sorenson John Bachar
Royal Cornpad 5.10a 1976 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis
Sailin' Shoes 5.10d 1978 Bruce Morris Dave Austin Chuck Neifield Gary Robbe Peter Thurston Val Lecont
Sargantana 5.9 A5 VI 1997 Pep Mesip Silvia Vidal
Savage Amusement 5.11b 1988 Ed Collins Joan Collins Ken Ariza Tucker Tech
Second Thoughts 5.10a Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Sex Drive 1988 Tucker Tech Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Siberian Swarm Screw 5.10a 1972 Jim Donini Steve Wunsch John Bragg Kevin Bein Bev Johnson
Skinheads 5.10d 1991 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Slingshot 5.12a 1990 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt
Sloppy Seconds 5.5 1972 Jerry Anderson Elsie Anderson
Sloth Wall 5.7 1972 Steve Miller Jerry Anderson Elsie Anderson
Sorry Poopsie 5.8 1989 Don Reid Susan Reid
Space Case (Lunch Ledge Direct) 5.8 A4 IV 5.10c 1961 Yvon Chouinard Wally Reed 1976 Ray Jardine Linda McGinnis
Mt. Starr King, Northwest Face 5.9 II 1970 Ken Boche Mary Bomba
Stephanie's Corner 5.8 1991 Stephanie McCormack Walt Shipley
Strangers in the Night 5.10b 1972 Jim Donini Rab Carrington Bev Johnson Steve Wunsch
Supplication 5.10c 1971 Barry Bates Bev Johnson
The Syllable 5.8 1971 Rick Sylvester Sibylle Hetchel
Sylvester's Meow 5.11a 1986 Rick Sylvester Sue Odom
Teacher's Pet 1988 Dave Yerian Cade Loyd Ken Ariza Merry McGrath-Braun
Thunderhead 5.11d Jim Beyer Janice Linhares 1985 Jonny Woodward Maria Cranor
Tooth or Consequences 5.11b 1986 Charles Cole Lidija Painkiher
Twisted Road VI 2003 Paul Tureki Kristen Kramer Greg Collins
Unagi 5.10c 1988 Clint Cummins Nancy Kerrebrock
Unnamed but Beautiful 5.10c 2001 Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Uppity Women 5.10c 1990 Lin Murphy Denise Matenson
Warm Up Crack 5.10a Dan McDevitt Sue McDevitt Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson
Watermelon Rind 5.9 A3 V 1971 John Svenson Sharon Young Kent Stokes Bob Schneider
Waverly Wafer 5.10c 1970 Jim Bridwell Barry Bates Bev Johnson
West Side Story 5.10b 1989 Tucker Tech Sue Harrington
William's Climb 5.10c 1989 Jerry Anderson Sigrid Anderson Lynnea Anderson William Anderson Rob Kroeckel
Winter of Our Discontent 5.1 1989 Tucker Tech Sue Harrington
Winterlewd 5.10b 1990 Lin Murphy Jane Koski Mia Ongelma
Zoner 5.11b 1985 Mark Spencer Shirley Spencer Floyd Hayes
..............................................
Don't know if it's been updated since, but here it is on the forum:
(The Fish had suggested some corrections)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=53589&msg=675730#msg675730
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 13, 2018 - 08:03pm PT
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When I was looking at submissions on YouTube for Bonnie Raitt, in one of the duets she did with John Lee Hooker, she stated that she has known him since she was 19 years old.
Cool shit!
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