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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Five weeks prior to this photo, I was out there alone doing P1 of new route on bigger formation. Dude strolls up outta nowhere (I'm thinkin' random hiker old guy) and is immediately tuned in: the warmish slug of beer and pile of pins, hammers and other tools of the devil - "You're doing a new route."
He caught me redhanded, and walked away shortly, declining invitation to join the adventure. I mentioned a baby tower (the above abortus route victim), and he strolled away.
The drill dust on the route was less than a week old and I found it on a Tuesday, after - hahahaha! - hiking newroot kit out there. Bummer. Weird to witness such stuff happen just a month after scoping the virgin stone, eyeballing the (largely viable) mud-filled cracks. Weirder too to clip up the sprayed-in-place hangers (ClimbX?), backing them up for the 7/10 ratio with cleanish gear, passing overdeep unclippable brandnew and permanent studs....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Just ridiculous! There are no words.
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Gail Hightower
climber
SE
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Though I don't often comment on ST, my two cents are as follows:
If the routes in question are going up in quarries, I don't see the issue. The entire site is the result of "manufacturing."
I'm from the SE and there are quarries around here that folks bolt up every so often, and I've heard rumors of chipping/pocket drilling.
The limestone and marble in those locations was literally blasted away, leaving huge empty scars on the land, abandoned rusting machinery, and trash dumps. If someone wanted to spend the time to properly clean up one of those sites and bolt it (assuming it is their land or acceptable for them to do so) then it seems to me an excellent reclamation activity.
The issue with much of the discussion I've read on this thread is that too many arguments remain in the idyllic and aren't confronting the reality facing local civic parks and rec managers or private conservation groups charged with recreating abandoned quarries into usable outdoor spaces. Though quarries don't provide the adventure experience many of us look for, it seems to me that they can still offer recreational value to a city when done properly with the result being a usable space where there previously was waste. To me, it is silly to tell a land manager "No, I won't drill a pocket on that wall for a hand hold, but I'll drill 8-10 for bolts if there are enough holds otherwise."
Just some thoughts.
I can think of two southern quarries that have been developed:
https://www.mountainproject.com/area/112117777/ijams-crag
https://www.mountainproject.com/area/108538640/rocky-face-recreational-area
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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and if they're being pounded out of freestanding stone pinnacles?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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^they did. until dickhead found me doing a line in good style, got itchy britches, and bitch-bolted that babytower.
you should come climb my line. I bet you'd like it, even call it climbing, if'n you have a sense of humor and a willingness to really trust your own judgement and ability to disperse your weight across marginal features. it's not for everyone, and that is exactly why I like it. my line is not hard, I think I wrote Cl 4 A2 in the register and it will be clean probably for the next go
it's siltstone, for the record. some mud-chip inclusions and significant variegated shale interbeds on the regular keep things dirty, wild, impulsive, free, exciting. it's no mystery towers steepness, it's no sundevil, but it deserves a repeat, just for to dirty some'dy elses's ropes, clog their cams, ha!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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I may be a product of the booming boom boom of the activity but then so aren't we all. There is plenty of bomber granite and 'world's best stone' diorite available to me. But sometimes you just gotta ride the poopship destroyer...and scrapin' the dingledirt is definitely the deal
the milieu is flat and these rare proud windsculpted protuberances thus command a finer position on the landscape, deserve not to be egregiously scarred. but it's a free world and I need some hangers, so...overbolters gonna overbolt and...I've been chewing on this here brownie, baby.
this isn't just about mudstone anyway. I'm talking about soybeans, people.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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How do you all feel about the "new wave" of dry tooling routes that seem to require a lot of the "holds" to be pre-drilled? The argument seems to be that the routes are established on choss that would never be climbed otherwise, so who cares? Seems like a specious argument. In any event, the difficulty of the route then becomes largely a gym-setters question, although the continuously overhanging nature of the routes certainly makes them hard no matter what! Still, it feel bogus to me as the game has always been overcoming what nature presents. Bolts for sure go partway down a slippery slope--"murder of the impossible" and all that--but once one decides to simply scrap the part about working with available holds? Seems too much.
BAd
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2017 - 07:44am PT
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I strongly suspect that in the amount of time I have left in my climbing life I will be able to satisfy my needs without resorting to manufactured climbs.....have rope, will travel.
The two areas in the above pictures which are on my upcoming tick list should serve up some good climbing without the need to manufacture.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2017 - 07:47am PT
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Bad...I think those dry tooling routes with drilled holds and bolts every half a body length are an abomination.....might as well just do pullups with a weight belt.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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I'm with you, Jim. I think already trashed quarries, maybe? Being so artificial, yeah, the routes might as well just be gym problems--in actual gyms.
Those are some amazing pics. Best of luck!
BAd
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
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Yeah Bad Climber, as you can see there is beaucoup virgin rock out there if you’re willing to travel...if you’re not, there are plenty of manufactured climbs in your local gym.
Bad...the “you” refers to climbers in general not you specifically.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oh skippy I saw your dude with a Claw hammer and screwdriver at New Jack city hacking out a 3 bolt something with the bolts 3 feet apart.
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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No way I was gonna let this one slide. the slippery slope that was predicted when rap bolting and hang dogging came along has proven to be correct. the ethics just keep slipping and slipping. How about sticky mits for jamming? back in '85 someone woulda slashed your tires for using them in the valley, now its recommended gear! shouldn't try outer limits without'em. Stick clipping too. WTF. I remember when cheat stones were an issue.'ol turd skimmer got a potato stuck up his exhaust pipe for hangdogging on the Stigma. Neil "bend down and suck my" Cannon got heckeled from the road. Not to mention the whole Wings of Steel incident.heh heh heh. No one cares man! the whole thing is watered down BS.
Look at Jacked canyon? screw it, bolt holds on el cap, killer 10d for everybody. justgetitf*#kingoverwith.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Two steps back and get some perspective:
Climbing is a choice, as a recreational activity.
Rules are arbitrary, but consensus agreements are common to regions and areas. They informally provide an atmosphere of collegial competition and self-assessment in comparison to peers and predecessors.
Rules are agreed upon to sustain the recreational traditions and elements of climbing, and when done out of doors it has tended to support the natural state of the rock as much as possible, as that is the source of all challenges, as opposed to indoor/artificial walls, where human design is imposed. The two philosophies traditionally have never mixed well.
Climbing is not engineering, though it shares some simple tools and safety devices.
Chipped, drilled, chiseled, or otherwise altered routes on rock have by and large proven to be climbable, without modification, by later generations.
As there can be no degree by which to differentiate an "appropriate" from and excessive level of modification, anyone else has the same right to enlarge and "improve" the alterations to fit their own standards, so rationally anyone can subsequently carve ring jugs up the entire route. This is my personal choice for treatment of manufactured routes on real rock.
Basically, such tactics have always been about cheating, that is doing something in order to get credit for something, without actually having done it in the manner other people reasonably assume you did.
Ego blinds - none of us, especially you with the chisel, will be the greatest climber of all time, and knowing how the notoriety of past sinners has tarnished each one's other achievements, you need to eat an extra large piece of humble pie and get over yourself, or face retribution in the anarchist court of public opinion. Slashed tires cost money, just sayin'...
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Hey now,(& thnx Off White)
it is the age of the demise of everything great.
The thing is;
Manufacturing as a rule is rejected as impure.
The thing is;
that the dirty little secret is that making sausage is never pretty.
Some stone needs extensive 'cleaning'.
WAY BEYOND WHAT WOULD SEEM TO BE "Fair Means" today.
I've always wondered?
is the "'dont touch it if you dont have to'" ,
"'pull down - not out'"
and other rule to stay alive by,
now ignored by the gym-trained crushers,
rules to stay alive by,ignored,
a loss of the learning curve fostered by plastic pulling
HAVE LED TO INJURIES?
I THINK SO.
I ALWAYS TEST THE BOULDERS AND HOLDS, BEFORE I COMMIT. . .
CROSS POSTED:
For years I chose to leave a flake the size of a refrigerator, on the short ledge.
It was a block that rocked back,n' forth about 3-4 inches, but never rocked out enough to worry me
I liked the 5.2 start if offered . . .
Then in the summer of 2015 a fire burned across the top of the formation.
This burn led to the change in the soil permeability, causing seepage and the freeze thaw cycle led to the block becoming a danger, That's it, there; bottom center between the standing dead white tree on the left,& the wall
had to get help,(thnx, For Your service, Navy Seal)
but it is gone. . . So is the ol' dead snag of a tree . . .
Now There is another place
I am the only one that knows of . . . the spot, is amazing and I cant touch most of the climbs now. They all start with .11-.12ish movesSee the block on the ground, left side of the standing block,It is a big sucka. . .
But on closer Inspectionits the tool that was used, an old drive shaft
what is blocked? the harder start,
the block is not moving without work, and I'm not willing to or interested in moving it but. .
it will take a car jaxk, or 3. to send it crashing . . . where.theres all sorts of great traversing high balls of yesterday await the confirming grasp of some other climber
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I have one thing to say about FA's. Quality over quantity.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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scrubbed rubbed and loved. The motto of every choss climber!
Not the same as whack-a-hold.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2017 - 08:53pm PT
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You know...I’m done. No more trying to impose my views. I have a few years left to ride the tide and I know places brilliant and alone where I can make my final statement...to myself.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jim, I don't see where you are trying to impose anything. A dialogue, like you said to start with. Of course people on this forum do have strong opinions and get pretty worked up. So it is.
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