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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 10, 2017 - 05:33am PT
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She does not "owe" us to fight if she isn't well,
I never said she'd owed anyone a fight. I corrected your mistaken assumption that she was not ok to fight when she was in fact medically cleared to go.
What my point is, is that fans feel she needs to be at blame when there is no clear blame. It isn't cut and dry.
Actually it is "cut and dry"
She made weight and was given the ok by doctors. A champion refusing to fight with no valid medical reason not to is a first in the UFC
The criticism against her has nothing to do with her gender, race, or orientation
She simply didn't want to fight...which means she refused to honor her contract
It's as simple as that
If she is a victim- then it's because she failed herself
This is one of my problems with modern Feminism- even when presented with clear facts to show the opposite you still claim victim status...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 10, 2017 - 09:19am PT
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interesting you would post that definition, but then again...
however you perhaps intentionally misunderstand the issue.
I know you like simple, but here's something to thing about, at least:
'What makes identity politics a significant departure from earlier, pre-identarian forms of the politics of recognition is its demand for recognition on the basis of the very grounds on which recognition has previously been denied: it is qua women, qua blacks, qua lesbians that groups demand recognition. The demand is not for inclusion within the fold of “universal humankind” on the basis of shared human attributes; nor is it for respect “in spite of” one's differences. Rather, what is demanded is respect for oneself as different (Kruks, Sonia, 2001, Retrieving Experience: Subjectivity and Recognition in Feminist Politics, Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press.: 85).'
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-politics/
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 10, 2017 - 09:40am PT
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Tamp on, Warbler. :0)
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jul 10, 2017 - 09:46am PT
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Re: testosterone and athletic performance
I think it's a given that men are faster than women (on average) in track events. Administering testosterone to a woman will probably make her run faster.
(An interesting piece on unbreakable track records: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/sports/olympics/jarmila-kratochvilova-800-meters-record.html);
Something I've seen pop up in both the "can women climb?" banter and the "is Alex Honnold the best athlete of all time?" banter is the question of how athleticism and climbing skill are related. As was mentioned (by fivethirty and others) in the Honnold thread, a cutting-edge climber is not at "peak athletic performance" the way that a cutting-edge runner is. This is not a slight directed at either running or climbing; it is merely an observation about the nature of the sports. Climbing is not a purely athletic endeavor; it is far more multidimensional than a sport like running could ever be.
Put another way, while athleticism is required to be a good climber, it is absolutely not sufficient to be a good climber.
I don't know what this means for the cutting edge of the sport. Maybe at that level, raw athletic ability is still predictive of climbing ability. I suspect, though, that it means that women will always be able to perform at the same top levels as men. And for run-of-the-mill weekenders, the relationship between athleticism and climbing ability is a wild scatter.
The personal take: I have always avoided biking and running with my fit male friends because, no matter how hard I try, a man at a fitness level equivalent to mine will always be faster than me. I dislike feeling like dead weight, so I mostly bike alone. Climbing has always felt different than that. I've taken over scary leads for guys that could drop me biking up the tiniest hill, and I can hang out forever on finger-jams that make no sense to my guy friends. Balance, bravery, resiliency, and focus have always seemed equally or more important than pure athleticism. I certainly have male friends that are way better than me at climbing, but amongst the group as a whole it does not seem that athleticism, ability, and gender are particularly well-correlated, and I've always felt like an equal.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
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Atheticism and climbing is like IQ and high level science - there is a minimum, but past a certain point you don't HAVE to have a higher level. As time goes on, the minimum requirements of athleticism to be world class are rising as athletes become stronger and more skilled.
I don't really know much about "Can men do X or Y better" because it doesn't really mean anything. So what? There are some women who are very strong so others can get as strong, or stronger. As strong (or high performance) as men? Maybe not, but just like I can't get taller or a smaller nose or a longer reach I can't change who I am so why focus on that.
That being said, I've done various sports my whole life and some just fit men better. Your 'average' female climber and 'average' male climber are pretty close in skill gap, I would even put the 'average' male and female ultra distance runners to be about as close as you can get in sports. In combat sports, it is so scary far apart it isn't funny.
The male frame and female frame have their advantages, I don't see that affecting *too* much in climbing. Judo, that's another thing.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 10, 2017 - 04:18pm PT
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Who does better or worse, what body type, which sex....who really cares? In the end it boils down to what you, the individual, does with what you are given.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 10, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
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Years ago, I recall reading something that Alison Hargreaves said about the female body, in certain respects, being better adapted to high altitude mountaineering than the male body.
Also, in comparing footage of let's say, Chris Sharma with Lynn Hlll, it seems as if a really strong guy, due to more brute strength, can do certain moves and waste some energy. Lynn, on the other hand, seems to dance up the rock with a more minimalist approach. If course, that is not necessarily a male/female thing; Chuck Pratt was famous for knowing how to do moves with a minimum of energy.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 10, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
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Also, in comparing footage of let's say, Chris Sharma with Lynn Hlll, it seems as if a really strong guy, due to more brute strength, can do certain moves and waste some energy.
Yeah, if only Chris had some technique thing how hard he would have climbed. (Sorry sarcasm doesn't come through on the Internet.)
A persistent myth is how women climb with such great technique and men should just copy women. Seems more likely that both men and women climb in ways that are suited to their physiques, which are different, so they climb differently.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 10, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
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In the 2009 book Playing with the Boys: Why Separate is not Equal in Sports, two female authors argue that the only reason women appear to be athletically inferior to men is that society unfairly segregates them due to outmoded patriarchal beliefs. An exceedingly dumb 2013 article in VICE magazine says the idea that boys are better athletes than girls is “f*#king bullshit” and that the “games are rigged.” Naturally, there is no statistical evidence to buttress this non-argument, only the usual frothing about sexism and patriarchy and what impenitent as#@&%es men are.
http://takimag.com/article/ending_gender_discrimination_in_professional_sports_jim_goad#axzz4mTlKoVfA
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2017 - 06:05pm PT
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LOL Kevin ... you're killing me .....
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jul 10, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
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^^^good gawd. You're like a dog with a bone. Me thinks thou dost protest too f*#king damn much.
Susan
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
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FYI no one has died in the UFC and I can just start naming dead climbers, if you wanna talk bloody... Some of us generally enjoy fighting, scrapping, violence in general. It's not like an anger thing like you make it out to be hehe
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
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Just let us revel in our shirtless dad bod glory Susan geez
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2017 - 08:53pm PT
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I mean I wasn't referencing you but if you say so... XD
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2017 - 07:42am PT
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I love my cat. Dumb as sh#t.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jul 11, 2017 - 09:25am PT
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it would be nice if you feminists would just revel in your sex's superiority
Gosh. Thank you for the mansplaining. It's subtle language subtexts like that which become a window into someone's thought processes. Basically if my conduct only comported to what makes YOU comfortable the world would be better.
And, adding the "you feminists". You have chosen to lump me into a group of which you already hold to an inferior status as evidenced by " it would be nice ..... (if you would behave in a way 'I ' like". ). You catagorize me by a few posts on ST for gawd's sake.
Extremism rarely is a good policy for action but it is critical to get the conversation going and, basically "wake up" the sleeping masses. If we hadn't of had the extremism of Susan B Anthony, Rosa Parks, Hitler, Mussolini, Viet Nam war protesters, the list goes on, we wouldn't have had, eventually, policies that address serious, even grievious wrongs.
You would probably enjoy reading Camille Paglia. She would be described by many as a hard core feminist with very different views about the core of feminism.
Susan
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jul 11, 2017 - 09:44am PT
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Categorizing women into two exaggerated types (the peachy-faced pixies who always play along and the angry feminists who troll the dark corners of the internet) implies that the identity and character of all women is defined by one thing only: their relationship with men. If they play along with the sexist drivel masquerading as banter, it must mean they recognize their true purpose: having a body for a man to possess! If they push back, it must mean that they are an angry feminist warrior whose entire purpose is seek out and destroy all men!
This characterization is absurd, of course. Women are not defined by their relationship with men, nor are men defined by their relationship with women. Women care about human relationships, sure, but they also care about myriad other things--just like men do. The relative amount a person cares about work, sports, romantic relationships, etc should not matter across gender. The whole point of feminism is about equality of CHOICE. If a guy's main priority is his family, he should be able to embrace that without judgment. If a woman's main priority is her career, she should be able to embrace that without judgment. Each individual should be able to balance their various life goals without being bullied for not being "masculine and dominant" enough or not being sufficiently "sexy and subservient."
It's in everyone's self-interest to embrace a society where more lifestyle choices are open to both men and women. Do you really want to be in relationships based purely on NEED, where one parter is not the equal of the other? Human relationships are more fulfilling when the people involved are each confident and fully-formed, with the freedom to make their own choices.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Jul 11, 2017 - 09:55am PT
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So what choices, specifically, do you not believe are available to a woman climber?
For a woman who is already climbing, I think the sport presents a pretty equal playing field. I think the forces keeping women out of climbing are acting outside of climbing itself. For example, for most of history there have been fewer organized opportunities for young girls to get outside or play sports (and of course, social pressure pushing little girls out of those activities). I think and hope that this is actively changing.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 11, 2017 - 10:00am PT
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So nice to see you all disagreeing so pleasantly and civilly. If ALL debates on socio-religious topics on this forum were argued so dispassionately there would not be so many who leave here disgusted.
Carry on. The chihuahua is not yet satisfied, I think.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 11, 2017 - 10:45am PT
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Fact is, any kind of profiling is only helpful in the wide context because within all human groups lies diversity in part by our basic makeup and in part by the experiences that conditioned us. And so categorical statements about men, or feminists, or baseball players, tell us little about a given person, though they might inform us about pack behavior in the round.
What seems always to happen is that we tar people with the wrong brush, in light of general, not specific, inferences.
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