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pissed
Trad climber
Lake Placid NY
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Dec 18, 2006 - 06:58pm PT
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it just doesn't make sense to me. The story is always changing. The sheriff has not given me a reason to be confident that he has a straight story. That grin is really getting at me too....
Positive vibes
EDIT to say
ON cascade forum a searcher who was on summit yesterday said this:
"It seems that the climbers did summit because faint tracks were found near the summit plateau leading towards the Wyeast Route. Most likely they were not trying to descend down the Pearly Gates (as per news reports) but looking
for the Cooper Spur route. They miscalculated (got lost) and
descended too far SE to the Wyeast Route instead and dropped approx 350 ft. There they discovered their error, traversed East about 150ft and built a snow cave (big enough for 3) to await the next morning. The next day James remained in the cave, one or two? climbers traversed further East on very steep terrain towards the Cooper Spur crest. There they continued their decent another 100ft down the crest. They then chose to go further to skiers left beyond the crest where they established another smaller cave and the rap anchors on steep terrain. After that.... is a mystery that left behind one backpad pad, some pickets? and 2 technical axes in the cave. There is evidence that the rope was cut.
Please appreciate the conditions that these climbers were facing. To error is human and maybe some were made that day. But its also likely that they fought long and hard to make it down. They operated for a time under extreme conditions and as a human being and as a climber I have to respect that.
"
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2006 - 07:03pm PT
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Yeah, they have no motivation for lying. My guess is the other two guys perished somewhere up there somehow. If not they would have been jumping up and down all over the place by now.
It's a sad reality when time goes this far into a search of this magnitude. I'd want it to be wrong, but all the signs point otherwise.
This is a tragedy. Just terrible. With a faint glimmer of hope, I really hope I'm wrong.
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pissed
Trad climber
Lake Placid NY
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Dec 18, 2006 - 07:07pm PT
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Thank you Werner
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Dec 18, 2006 - 07:25pm PT
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The talks about technology are good. I never would have thought about being a GPS person until I used one. It surely could help one find their way in a whiteout if you know how to use it and have programmed it.
However, in the case of these guys, something had gone terribly wrong 8 days ago. The guy was not all there when he talked to his family then. Throw in the huge storms and winds we had up here and there is no technology that would have helped them. Nothing aside from sleeping gear and a stove and fuel. The ed result would be the same.
As far as searching zig zags, I am prety sure that they did that early on during the storms. Everyone going up Mt Hood should know about the Triangle thing going on there.
It is pretty bizarre, I have spent quite a bit of time up there, and on the south side in a good day, the mountain seems beign and friendly even. One winter I climbed the south side from T-Line in 3.5 hours and skied off the top to arrive 1 hour from leaving the top. A short jaunt in the morning. However, under the conditions these guys faced, it would be difficul to even survive. 100+MPH? WTF does that even feel like?
I agree with Werner though, it is now a recovery operation. I hate to say it, but any hope is so thin at this point....
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Dec 18, 2006 - 07:33pm PT
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They didn't make the pearly gates , they couldn't find it...( would be difficult being that they had never been up there before and in those conditions ) evidence suggests now that they went back over and tried to descend the north side, as anchors have been found . That is a dangerous area in good weather, alot of climbers have fallen there over the years. Awaiting details but not looking good , so sad to say..
If they had made it to and down through the Pearly Gates , the fall line does take you into zig-zag , you are correct there. If so , chances are good they would have made treeline and probably been found at this point...wish it were so.
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pissed
Trad climber
Lake Placid NY
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Dec 18, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
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I have never heard it called "triangle." Is that a refernce to the fall line?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2006 - 07:57pm PT
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"But it was technology that allowed reason to overcome the poor judgement of this climber."
In the case of Everest it is technology and Sherpas fixing lines and hauling O2 that let fools like him be on Everest let alone anywhere near the summit; but that's a tragedy of a different sort...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Dec 18, 2006 - 08:07pm PT
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Triangle is just refering to a fall line vector and a due south vector. Hence, triangle.
Something else to consider. Just checking at cc.com TR's. Their TR database IMHO is the best. Anyway, some guys did the N Face of Hood last February in ideal conditions in about 16-17 hours car to car (parked at the Ski Area). That is a lite n fast approach. These guys who carried some extra bivvy gear did not IMO have a lite n fast approach. Mt Hood can be a real big undertaking, however, if you are carrying bivvy gear, I would hardly consider that a lite n fast. Just thought I would point that out since many have said that these guys were going litenfast. I think something bad happened last weekend then te weather broke horribly and they got pinned down. I was skiing at Bachleor all weekend last weekend and was amazed at how cold it was Saturday. Pretty hard to relate to climbing in 50 MPH winds at 20 degrees F. Frigid...
I feel for their families and loved ones. To the rescuers, thanks for all that you do.
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mthoodrescuehope
Social climber
nyc,ny
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Dec 19, 2006 - 03:20am PT
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ok, enough about technology.
let's face the situation as it is. what are the prospects for life?
honestly speaking, i am hoping these two guys are alive.
For those of you who have SAR experience, when are there diminishing efforts observed in an active search: 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 1 month? what am I getting at? I wanted to know/I am asking exactly how far resources can stretch to find these two guys and pull them off that damned mountain?
i am not implying folks should stop, what I AM objectively asking is when does a search and rescue enter another phase after the likelihood for success has ran extensively? what is the next phase in terms of SAR procedures?
a last question is, speaking strictly on the season and the weather systems which hit the mt hood area... what is the near-real probability that another major system could hit and dump snow on these guys before they are found?
Thank you for reading.
P.S. If the families of those lost are reading, I feel for ya. Keep hope alive. Let's hope something comes out of this which benefits all of us.
my last question: Has anyone written their congressman/congresswoman on the issue?
Thanks.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2006 - 03:44am PT
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Minor isolated front will come through Wed./Thu.; unclear how exactly it will hit us now that the jet stream is so far south and east. Keep watch on these links: [url="http://www.intellicast.com/IcastPage/LoadPage.aspx?loc=usa&seg=LocalWeather&prodgrp=SatelliteImagery&product=PacificLoop&prodnav=none" target="new"]Eastern Pacific sat loop[/url] and [url="http://www.intellicast.com/IcastPage/LoadPage.aspx?loc=usa&seg=StormCenter&prodgrp=SevereWeather&product=JetStream&prodnav=none" target="new"]jet stream[/url]
I suspect SAR ops will continue while we have reasonable weather, but we are talking days, not weeks. After that I am not familiar with their protocols, but lives will likely not be put at risk for a recovery effort unless a specific location is identified for such an activity in the coming days.
Can't see what the issue would be here for Congress...
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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Dec 19, 2006 - 10:30am PT
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Did anyone see the Nacy Grace part of the news last night?
Just looking for an update to the daily events on Mt.Hood and happened on this channel.
This was a disgrace quite frankly, in my opinion.
At one point she tried to make out that two guys who left Kelly James may have had some legal responsibility to have stayed with him. In leaving him they may have been partially responsible for his death. Not the exact words she used but she make it clear there may be a case for legal action against the other two. This was her comments and was not persued with anyone else on the programme. Of course we then got into who should foot the bill. A price on people's heads now?
I was totaly disgusted by the whole programme.
Climb safe.
Howie.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Dec 19, 2006 - 10:40am PT
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I'm sure you know not to believe everything you hear on the news, "most" of what is on the news is opinion...not fact. I WAS listening too, but after listening to so much conflicting and inaccurate info, I just chose not to listen to mainstream news on this matter, these newscasters have very little idea what they are talking about on this matter, you can tell by all the "umms" and misuse of climbing terms they use. Keep on prayin for a miracle for the other two. I'm not the one on the mountain, but it sure seems like an aweful lot of effort is put into this hopefully NONE of the rescuers are put into any further harmsway. Merry Christmas...Happy Holidays
Peace
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Dec 19, 2006 - 10:40am PT
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Did anyone see the Nacy Grace part of the news last night?
Just looking for an update to the daily events on Mt.Hood and happened on this channel.
This was a disgrace quite frankly, in my opinion.
At one point she tried to make out that two guys who left Kelly James may have had some legal responsibility to have stayed with him. In leaving him they may have been partially responsible for his death.
Maybe they should drop Nancy Grace on the summit just before this next system hits.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 19, 2006 - 10:46am PT
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Klimmer,
You don't get it both ways. If you go out with the technologies you have referenced, you are not self-reliant.
I'm not suggesting that self-reliance should be the priority for everyone going outdoors, although clearly the fact that it is not is changing the environment in which we play.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Dec 19, 2006 - 10:46am PT
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Guesses, speculation, they should have done this or that.
Enough already.
Let every other media source scrape bottom, we don't have to follow.
I hope the remaining two make it back.
If they don't make it, I send my sincere condolences and wishes for peace to thier families.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 19, 2006 - 11:15am PT
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The discussions of the Mt. Hood search and rescue are all throughout the media and parallel the discussions we have been having surrounding making routes "safe", e.g. the rebolting/retrobolting debates.
The NYTimes had an article yesterday (or maybe it was my local paper) where the "authorities" were lamenting the fact that the climbers were not wearing a "Mountain Location Unit" MLU, which would have aided in the search (or maybe it was online someplace, it doesn't matter).
The discussions of who is legally responsible for a death on a climbing trip is yet another symptom of the chain of thought that somehow climbing is an activity that can be engaged in where all of the risks of injury and death could be eliminated; and to not eliminate them is irresponsible boardering on actionable.
It has always been my most basic belief that when I go out that I am responsible for my safety and the safety of my partners, and that we, collectively, take on the risk and do not assume that anybody will come and rescue us, or that anything other than "self rescue" is possible. While this will limit how close to the edge of the envelope we'd go, it also put us in a mindset that allowed us to deal rationally with the situation at hand.
But even given that caution, which I believe exists to some extent for all climbers venturing out on such trips, it is entirely possible for the conditions to overwhelm our ability to survive. This is always a possibility, and it occurs to people at all levels of skill and preparations.
Sometimes we cannot overcome the adversity. It is a simple fact that even with our very advanced technology, our comprehensive knowledge, and the proximity to experts willing to risk their lives to come to our aid, that we venture just beyond the point of return.
Because the boundary of that frontier is not clearly marked, cannot be clearly marked, and because we seek that boundary in our adventures, the risk will always exist. But facing that risk is a part of the activity we participate in, dealing with that risk is a part of what we seek.
I am truely sorry for the loved ones of the climbers lost on Mt. Hood. There is still hope, of course, but we know that at some point the deck becomes so stacked against them that the outcome of the game is decided without playing out the last hand. I have been in similar situations, both as the lost as well as waiting to find the lost. When lost, I was in a position to figure out what to do, how to survive. Waiting is the hardest, and my sympathy is with those who do wait.
I do not give up hope that somehow these guys will find a way back, if one exists. And I will not ever think of the event in terms of fault or blame. We still do not know everything there is to know about making such a journey, about where the point of no return is, and we may never know. Everytime someone goes there we learn something. And as we go there, we both sympathize with their drive to get there, and with the consequences, both good and bad, of their being there.
We understand them, and we understand the situation that they find themselves in. Let us not rush to judgement, it is pointless, but eventually let us learn from their journey, as it is a journey anyone of us might make.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Dec 19, 2006 - 12:19pm PT
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I think it's more than a little odd one of these guys, out for his "yearly climb", a "practice" climb, thought he was ready for Everest. This N. Gulley route must have seemed like a piece of cake in comparison.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/4952476.html
This stuff has become a part of our culture. Hop off the couch, grab that GPS, MLU, Cell, Sat Phone, AFU, stock up on some trick gear and go fulfill your dreams on Everest, run an Ironman, whatever. Forget the process, nothing interesting going on there, just go straight for the trophy that implies it.
I am relieved for myself and my future childern that wilderness capable of killing off such hubris still exists in the lower 48, even if it has a ski lift on the side of it. May it be there to kill me off someday should I fly that close to the sun.
I believe I met the Nikko guy a few years ago in the Tetons. His wife is a match too. Finance industry, if so, at the time. Definitely not ready for Everest, or even Hood, at that time, if this was him. Nothing wrong with that. But the whole thing is sad.
JLP
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 19, 2006 - 01:16pm PT
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I'm beginning to believe these guys will be found in the spring.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dec 19, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
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Did anyone see Bill O'Reilly (Mr. Voice of Reason :-)) discussing this whole affair last night? He basically wants the authorites to lock the gates to the trailheads when "bad" conditions are happening. Unfortunately, the people he had on to debate the issue were not presenting any very good arguments against Bill O'Reilly's points.
Bruce
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dec 19, 2006 - 01:27pm PT
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Did anyone see Bill O'Reilly (Mr. Voice of Reason :-)) discussing this whole affair last night? He basically wants the authorites to lock the gates to the trailheads when "bad" conditions are happening. Unfortunately, the people he had on to debate the issue were not presenting any very good arguments against Bill O'Reilly's points.
Bruce
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