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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Nov 16, 2016 - 08:22am PT
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As a long time legal analyst and attorney...
Oh, that might be the problem--you may not understand how science works. Still, I'd think your standard then should be either a preponderance of the evidence or reasonable doubt. And, with respect to climate science even the higher standard has been met by those who understand the data. Anthropogenic global warming is very real beyond any reasonable doubt.
Curt
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 16, 2016 - 08:26am PT
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So what do we DO about it?
I think you'd rather argue about the cause ( which is already settled ) than to do anything about it, or you'd be talking about a course of action.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 16, 2016 - 08:45am PT
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^^^carbon tax - recognized as the most effective way to efficiently change carbon emission behavior.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 16, 2016 - 08:47am PT
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Has ten years of Cap & Trade in California had any measureable effect?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 16, 2016 - 09:15am PT
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Sea ice loss is accelerating in the Barents and Kara Seas (BKS). Assessing potential linkages between sea ice retreat/thinning and the region's ancient and unique social–ecological systems is a pressing task. Tundra nomadism remains a vitally important livelihood for indigenous Nenets and their large reindeer herds. Warming summer air temperatures have been linked to more frequent and sustained summer high-pressure systems over West Siberia, Russia, but not to sea ice retreat. At the same time, autumn/winter rain-on-snow (ROS) events have become more frequent and intense. Here, we review evidence for autumn atmospheric warming and precipitation increases over Arctic coastal lands in proximity to BKS ice loss. Two major ROS events during November 2006 and 2013 led to massive winter reindeer mortality episodes on the Yamal Peninsula. Fieldwork with migratory herders has revealed that the ecological and socio-economic impacts from the catastrophic 2013 event will unfold for years to come. The suggested link between sea ice loss, more frequent and intense ROS events and high reindeer mortality has serious implications for the future of tundra Nenets nomadism. Biology Letters Nov 2016
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 16, 2016 - 09:35am PT
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Has ten years of Cap & Trade in California had any measureable effect?
are you asking this as a rhetorical question? if so, be less coy.
Cap & Trade is not a carbon tax... however, the most successful environmental mitigation, the reduction of CFC emission into the atmosphere, was based on Cap & Trade. This was an international agreement coming out of the Montreal Protocol, that curtailed the production of CFCs and decreased the amount of human released gases responsible for ozone layer depletion.
California Cap & Trade compliance became law in 2013, nearly four years ago...
the California GDP has been growing, the CO2 emissions per $GDP have been declining...
sounds like it is working.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 16, 2016 - 10:00am PT
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^reading it right now Brandon - this is the same stuff that my partner does. TFPU!
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Nov 16, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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Those of you who want to see fundamental changes in human society? You need to recruit better sales people. The ones who have taken the jobs now can't sell sh#t.
Oh and a replacement for fossil fuels... that would be good too.
DMT
I expect the world to keep making some minor changes. For instance, concerns about climate change has caused more money to poor into renewables like solar and wind then would have happened otherwise.
But my expectations for change anywhere on the scale that is needed is quite low.
It's like arguing with a drug addict. I think making the argument is the humane thing to do. I think the prognosis is grim.
My hope for future Schadenfreude: I hope 30 years from now that all the climate deniers who troll on the internet have grandkids that can go back and read all the denials they posted...
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Al Barkamps
Social climber
Red Stick
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Nov 16, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
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If you look around the planet, the countries where the people do those things - like China, India - have the worst environmental problems.
Linking those two things as causative makes absolutely zero sense.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 16, 2016 - 02:25pm PT
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The U.S. Geological Survey has made its largest discovery of recoverable crude ever under parts of West Texas, the federal agency announced Tuesday.
A recent assessment found the “Wolfcamp shale” geologic formation in the Midland area holds an estimated 20 billion barrels of accessible oil along with 16 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and 1.6 billion barrels of natural gas liquids. That’s three times higher than the amount of recoverable crude the agency found in the Bakken-Three Forks region in the upper midwest in 2013, making it “the largest estimated continuous oil accumulation that USGS has assessed in the United States to date,” according to a statement.
“The fact that this is the largest assessment of continuous oil we have ever done just goes to show that, even in areas that have produced billions of barrels of oil, there is still the potential to find billions more,” said Walter Guidroz, program coordinator for the USGS Energy Resources Program.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 16, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
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carbon tax - recognized as the most effective way to efficiently change carbon emission behavior.
Ed, cap and trade can work the same as a carbon tax. Technically, any effluent charge can create the optimal amount of effluent discharge. Germany proved that in the Ruhr basin more than 50 years ago.
With that very minor qualification, you're absolutely correct. If you don't impose a cost on costly actions, you'll get too much of them.
I think you'd rather argue about the cause ( which is already settled )
I'm not sure that's entirely true. As Chaz says, the science strongly confirms the existence of anthropogenic global warming, but we're still quibbling over the exact relationship. The key word in the last sentence, however, is quibble.
Climate science differs from laboratory science in that we make statistical inferences from non-experimental data. That means that we have statistical margins of error. Those who wish to do nothing sieze on that fact to say "we don't know, so we shouldn't act." That's a non-sequitur. We know, just not how much. The funny thing about a margin of error is that we can not only overestimate the effect of anthropogenic carbon emissions, we can underestimate it, too.
I think DMT is correct that we don't do as much as the statistical and scientific evidence suggests, because we don't want to pay the cost in jobs, lifestyle changes, etc. Because, by and large, we don't pay directly for carbon emissions, we don't feel the effect of those emissions directly. That doesn't change the fact that humanity -- and the only world in which we live -- feels those effects completely.
John
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Nov 16, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
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I just want to say in response to DMT. I make less than 40k a year,I live completely off the grid (solar),burn less than 2% of my total fuel consumption in fossil fuels and am not hooked to anything but a cell phone service.
If I can do it ,a hell of a lot could do it as well.
I do not live in a cave.
I have every modern convienence ,I eat good as well.
It is education and commitment that drives one,not to mention fiscal decisions.
Not just one's wallet.
Yes I am poor salesman......lol
And ,my fuel is delivered.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Nov 16, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
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I can tell you why more Republicans don't worry about it -- it's because they're convinced it isn't real. I am completely flummoxed when I talk to smart Republicans (some of whom are by actual brothers) who seem to think that they know better than 95% of climate scientists! It's like they have temporarily lost their minds.
It does NOBODY any good to deny truth. The question of what we should and can do about it is a different matter altogether. What we should do about it is a question worthy of discourse between the right and left. Whether it is true or not is not open for discussion among non-experts.
Most of these same deniers have never bothered to read anything significant on the subject from a scientific standpoint.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Nov 16, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
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http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/carbon-dioxide-may-soon-be-used-make-fuel.htmlhttp://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/carbon-dioxide-may-soon-be-used-make-fuel.htmlI am a Carpenter,you know one of the first people out of work in a recession. I work pt in a bike shop ,groom at a local hill and sell NY's finest.
Yes, I rely on wood and building materials being delivered,made,extracted and then used at the site. I use quite a bit of reclaimed now and sustainable brands.
I would like to see that streamlined as well. It can.
I guess my point is ,if say 20% of our society did more ,a lot would change .
It is coming along,there are guys at RIT finding out that Co2 could become a transportation fuel. That would be huge.
If I made more,everything I own would be electric and rechargeable.
No one has to do anything,they may just want to,for future generations.
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Al Barkamps
Social climber
Red Stick
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Nov 16, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
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Because it is no big deal and there isn't anything we can do about it anyway.
As drumpf would say.....WRONG!
....but I can understand how basic scientific principles go right by the mathematically and scientifically illiterate.
After all, most people still believe that when Wile E. Coyote runs off a cliff that his trajectory is flat til he slows down, stops, then falls. Right Jody?
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nov 16, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
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Climate change is inevitable, with or without human influence . . . we are simply a catalyst for potentially catastrophic acceleration of natural cycles.
Deniers be liars.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Nov 16, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
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people make their own reality for themselves these days
climate change is too much doom for most people to handle in their daily lives
so they simply tell each other it isn't true
truthiness
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Nov 17, 2016 - 05:57am PT
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Because it is no big deal and there isn't anything we can do about it anyway.
Sure Jody. Our 6,000 year old flat Earth has more urgent problems to deal with.
Curt
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