Stick clips replacing leading

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 161 - 180 of total 189 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Jul 20, 2016 - 02:56pm PT

I have to disagree about aid climbing not counting as leading. If anything, aid climbing reduces leading down to one variable (at least among experienced practitioners) -- boldness -- which, to me, forms a unique aspect of lead climbing. After all, the difference between A1 and A5 essentially amounts to how likely your piece will pop and how far you're likely to fall if it does.

In a way, aid climbing is the opposite of sport climbing. As rgold observed, the goal of sport climbing is to overcome technical difficulty, and eliminate all other factors from the equation.

Ultimately, though, whatever turns you on is fine by me - as long as you respect the condition of the rock resource.

John

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Jul 20, 2016 - 03:04pm PT

As rgold observed, the goal of sport climbing is to overcome technical difficulty, and eliminate all other factors from the equation.

Yes--same as with top roping. I'm unclear why donini disagrees.

Curt

WyoRockMan

climber

Grizzlyville, WY

Jul 20, 2016 - 03:05pm PT

Then, we need to define what "sport climbing" is, no?

Lol

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jul 20, 2016 - 03:08pm PT

Boldness certainly exists in aid climbing. There is also a bit of a mental element in sport climbing in addition to just raw difficulty that isn't there in top roping.
You hear the term "sketchy clip" quite often and some sport climbs can offer up falls that the great majority of us want to avoid. I agree with rgold that the main element of sport climbing is pure technical, physical difficulty, but I don't believe the mental element has been completely eliminated as it has in top roping.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Jul 20, 2016 - 03:13pm PT

Then, we need to define what "sport climbing" is, no?

I think it's pretty well understood to meet rgold's definition. A "sport climb" has removed everything else from the climbing equation except for the pure gymnastic ability of doing the moves. Properly bolted sport climbs are generally safe. I don't really think that most people still consider extremely run out bolted climbs (like some in Tuolumne) to meet the current definition of a sport climb.

This thread has strayed a bit from the original topic of stick clips, but here in AZ there are some older sport climbs where it was assumed that a stick clip would be used for clipping the first bolt, which was placed quite high with that in mind.

Curt

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Jul 20, 2016 - 03:35pm PT

The line between "sport climbs" and "bolted routes" is not defined.

Quite true. But, as a famous Supreme Court Justice once said about pornography, "I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I know it when I see it."

Curt

jstan

climber

Jul 20, 2016 - 03:48pm PT

May I ask? Suppose we suddenly had agreed upon definitions of the various forms of climbing;

would any one decide to change what they were doing?

So what is the discussion about? Really?

Sport climber

Sonora Ca

Jul 20, 2016 - 03:51pm PT

For me leading is more serious/harder, one deals with equipment, rope drag, conservation of energy, a psychological inclination to higher percentage moves, innate fear of falling and increased injury potential. I led several sport routes this morning (steep, reasonable bolting, no permadraws) and top roped one; the difference was clear--though none of them felt like a cable protected hike. Are hard "trad" climbs with preplaced pro legitimate leads?

Scott07

Sport climber

SugarPine

Jul 20, 2016 - 04:12pm PT

Hey pb, your right on the money. As a new climber you and mozs are the sh$t. Top rope is not a hike. To each their own. I've never led a pitch but get the same feeling of other high adrenalin sports I've done. Thanks for all the good times!!

Sport climber

Sonora Ca

Jul 20, 2016 - 05:41pm PT

in a month of mondays, moose?

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jul 20, 2016 - 06:32pm PT

"I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I know it when I see it."

Curt, you have my proxy. And if a 'sport climb' is in Suisse or Sardinia I don't care.
Besides, the bolts aren't gonna be 5' apart.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Jul 20, 2016 - 07:13pm PT

Are hard "trad" climbs with preplaced pro legitimate leads?

Do you mean a fixed pin here and there (like in the Gunks) or something else?

Curt

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Jul 20, 2016 - 07:23pm PT

Has RGold chimed in yet?
He usually has a pretty solid perspective.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Jul 20, 2016 - 07:40pm PT

I did chime earlier on. More like a pin drop than a hearty ding-dong.

I agree with rgold that the main element of sport climbing is pure technical, physical difficulty, but I don't believe the mental element has been completely eliminated as it has in top roping.

...which is why I called it "exciting top-roping."

But sometimes there is much more involved. Someone is eventually going to bring up the routes at places like the Ratikon, where the bolts are so far apart that you sure as hell are leading in the more traditional sense of having not only to resolve difficulties but to do so while maintaining a high level of control because of the huge fall potential.

See http://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/climbing/tommy-caldwell-and-his-intense-ratikon-and-wenden-climbing-tour.html for example. Tommy speaks of 100 foot fall potentials ending up 40 feet below the belayer on 5.12 pitches. That doesn't come anywhere near my description of the more typical sport climb.

Of course, a stick clip isn't going to be of any use on climbs like these.

Bad Climber

Trad climber

The Lawless Border Regions

Jul 20, 2016 - 08:10pm PT

@Rgold: You haven't seen MY stick clip!

BAd

jstan

climber

Jul 20, 2016 - 08:32pm PT

John, you know the answer. It's all about being superior.

Just following Socrates. You had the sand required to say what others would not. So the saying of it
actually means something.

Very early on I decided thinking one is superior goes nowhere good. The doing itself is the fun.
There can be a more lasting return however, if you do a job that needs to be done. That satisfaction
does not go away. It actually grows as the years go by.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Jul 20, 2016 - 08:48pm PT

May I ask? Suppose we suddenly had agreed upon definitions of the various forms of climbing;

would any one decide to change what they were doing?

So what is the discussion about? Really?

A very tricky question, because arriving at agreement, which you simply stipulated for your Socratic purpose, would in reality involve changing attitudes, and the potential for changing attitudes (on all sides of a question, not one side giving up and embracing another side's position) would then be a reasonable goal for what this---and any---discussion is about.

But I never hope for anything as grandiose as actually changing attitudes, even a little. A more modest goal, and one I still find worthy, is to actually understand clearly what is being contested.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jul 20, 2016 - 09:39pm PT

Well let's see....the attitudes expressed here are pretty much based on one's climbing experience. I, for one, have experienced sport climbs that challenged my mental composure as well as my technical skill......some seem to have not.

I have also experienced leading serious virgin, alpine terrain (no, the Sierra doesn't qualify) where mental composure is the most important ingredient.

All climbing has some mixture of both....I have done trad routes where the protection has been mostly above my head (mini top ropeing) and I have lead sport routes where the last draw was a disconcerting distance below my foot.

Overall trad rock climbing requires more mental composure than sport and that is why I enjoy the Black Canyon so much but I would be the last person to dimiss all sport climbing as a mere athletic enterprise. There is a big difference between the closely bolted climbs in Boulder Canyon and climbs with bolts 6 to 10 meters apart that I have seen in other venues.

Bottom line...climbing is too complex to easily compartmentalize.

I have pretty much tried it all and found physical and mental challenges everywhere.