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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 13, 2016 - 12:45pm PT
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I understand your viewpoint, John, but the comparison of the Brits & the IRA vs. what's going on today isn't exactly apples to apples. The Brits didn't have to contend with an organization like the NRA which does nothing more than promote greater access to any kind of firearm, with no restrictions whatsoever.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 13, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
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The uninformed still obsess about semi-autos because they don't know how
fast a proficient shooter can be with a 100 year old 6 shot revolver.
You can reload those with speed clips in 2 seconds, 3 if you're slow.
What seems rather strange to me is that it seems that out of all those
people nobody tried to do anything. It is pretty easy to disarm someone
with a rifle and if it appears you're going to go down anyway it seems
like throwing a chair at him would be worth trying.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 13, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 13, 2016 - 12:58pm PT
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Or ignoring it altogether, and accepting it as a 'normal' part of this society we live in...
Edit:
I might be able to get behind the idea of not reacting immediately with a bunch of laws, or at the very least, allowing enough time to understand this issue better and create intelligent legislation around it.
The problem is that the NRA will be doing everything they can to prevent better understanding of this phenomenon, and politicizing it amongst their brainwashed membership to result in nothing being done at all.
One reasonable law, in my mind: ABOLISH THE NRA.
Killing people en masse is unfortunate but it happens around the world with all manner of devices.
Does that make it ok? Of course not, and each case needs to be reviewed individually for any common root causes that might be able to be fixed. The key is root causes and investigations never seem to get that far since it's far more politically expedient to "Blame guns", "Blame Muslims", "Blame video games".
If you think "abolishing the NRA" would have any meaninful impact on the root cause of violence in it's many forms then you're simply distracted by the defacto bogeyman espoused by that side of the fence.
Our own government exports more violence everyday than 1000 Orlando's could accomplish. The fish rots from the head down, maybe that's a better place to start.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 13, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
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monolith, you've obviously never fired one.
You have to pull the trigger every time.
I don't think Vladimir Horowitz could pull a trigger 13 times in a second.
Oh, wait, he's already dead. Make that Vladimir Ashkenazy.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
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Did ya listen to the opening shots video?
Basicaly your finger is just bouncing back and forth.
Very easy to fire off 10 shots quickly as he did.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:01pm PT
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Yeah, up to 13 shots a second. An absolute necessity for hunting and gun ranges, not to mention Freedom.
13 shots per second is not semi-automatic
Although I think with certain trigger jobs you can bump fire almost that fast
I am not sure what video you are referring to but what are the chances that he illegally modified a semi-automatic rifle to Fire full auto?
vvvvvv I fully understand your point and totally agree even though I am what you would call a gun guy I am for stricter legislation mandatory training background checks all that stuff and I'm not the only one out here
edit;
Actually I suppose it would be gun nut here? Listening to that video it definitely sounds like a semi-automatic rifle
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:03pm PT
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You are right, it appears to be more like a max 5 rounds a second.
Although you can learn to bump fire and get that over 10 per second.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
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Nothing needs to be done bad people don't obey laws.
They run red lights, see, laws did nothing there.
They do it repeatedly, they lose their license and registration.
Something got done.
Drive Drunk, and see what happens.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:12pm PT
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Homosexual acts are a sin
Jody, so if the shooter would have been a white christian, you'd be ok with it?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:35pm PT
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Why can't we just for a little while--mourn the deaths of 50 fellow Americans, and both hope and pray for the recovery of those wounded?
Why can't the President of the United States utter the words Islamic Terrorism?
This was an atrocity. It doesn't matter to me whether they were straight, gay, or anything in between. They're dead Americans, and I'm pissed.
According to the news reports I've heard, the shooter was a Muslim. He was also reported to have called 911 and proclaimed his allegiance to ISIS. ISIS is now claiming responsibility.
Q fukkin ED.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
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piss off locker..
you don't hide your identity. so if someone really wanted to find you, they could.
John M, be careful.
I interpret that as a threat.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
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Why can't we just for a little while--mourn the deaths of 50 fellow Americans, and both hope and pray for the recovery of those wounded?
Why can't the President of the United States utter the words Islamic Terrorism?
This was an atrocity. It doesn't matter to me whether they were straight, gay, or anything in between. They're dead Americans, and I'm pissed.
According to the news reports I've heard, the shooter was a Muslim. He was also reported to have called 911 and proclaimed his allegiance to ISIS. ISIS is now claiming responsibility.
Q fukkin ED.
Why can't you utter the words American Terrorist? Or Male Terrorist? Or Florida Terrorist?
Why? Because it paints a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it.
It feeds into the narrative of ISIS, that the west considers ALL Muslims as terrorists and lesser humans. Sort of like posting signs that say "Dogs and Muslims not permitted here"---just a matter of time
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:52pm PT
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According to the news reports I've heard, the shooter was a Muslim. He was also reported to have called 911 and proclaimed his allegiance to ISIS. ISIS is now claiming responsibility.
I wouldn't want to paint with too broad a brush. Saying that the shooter is Muslim, while true, has minimal relevance, because ISIS remains a tiny percentage of the roughly 1 billion Muslims. I agree that the President needs to differentiate between any terrorist and Jihadist terrorists. Otherwise, we would look for the perpetrator of the next ISIS outrage at the same place we'd look for the next Timothy McVeigh, which would be stupid.
When I wrote about drifting toward a police state upthread today, I intentionally picked the free exercise of religion as the first freedom that would go. Blaming this outrage on Islam makes no more sense than blaming it on firearms, bullets, or the presence of hands with which to pull a trigger. What this act does show to me, if no one else, is that Jihadist extremists in Iraq and Syria form a threat to people in the United States, by inspiring those here to commit the sorts of reprehensible acts the self-styled caliphate commits in the Middle East, so just sitting here expecting the Atlantic to protect us amounts to being unprotected.
John
Edit: I think Ken M, above, articulates my position perhaps better than I did.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
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It feeds into the narrative of ISIS... -Ken
Sam Harris has a response to this claim, I think it's exactly right.
You should check it out.
Why can't you utter the words American Terrorist? Or Male Terrorist? Or Florida Terrorist? -Ken
Because HRC isn't using 'radical Islam' or some such, trump's using it as a very effective rhetorical tool from the political POV. Obviously we are in campaign battle mode presently. Watch Trump's anti-Hillary anti-radical Islam speech he gave today and also watch Carl Berstein on CNN today. I think he was right on point with his remarks. (I bet you might be a Carl Berstein fan?)
From a campaign POV, we have to negate Trump's attack on this point.
Also, by using the nomenclature 'Islamism' (vis a vis Islam) and 'radical Islam' (vis a vis Islam) we are able to nuance this complex subject. Fewer people - both educated and uneducated, informed and uninformed - will then (simplistically or naively) lump everything under 'Islam' or 'Muslim". We have to (learn to) draw these distinctions just as we do with every single other subject under the sun.
Why? Because it paints a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it.
No. It simply does not. Islam =/= Radical Islam. Sheesh.
Maybe this is where education of the masses is needed. Maybe this is why public education (in English, in the art of thinking, in social studies) is important.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jun 13, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
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When Jesus returns.
Right. In other words, never.
Curt
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 13, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
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Hate breeds more hate.
It is that simple.
Are you helping or making it worse?
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John M
climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 02:01pm PT
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mercy Ken.. Locker knows I'm not threatening him.
Hey Locker, do you feel threatened by me?
talk about a straight line. wait for it..
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jun 13, 2016 - 02:03pm PT
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This is the sort of thread I need to not read on ST, causes me to lose all respect for climbers I've otherwise appreciated. Glad I wised up at the first page.
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