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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 15, 2016 - 08:01am PT
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There are religous like "followers" who dont understand the process of science any better than the deniers. However that does not describe most of the people posting on this thread. It was a bit insulting really.
Sitting around afraid for the future .. Lots of people sit around living lives of fear. Seems to be human nature for some percentage no matter what their circumstances or particular choice of fears.
Again kinda insulting and basically not representative of me. I have a full and relatively sanguine grip on the concept of GUNNA DIE and how that applies to all 8billion humans
however
You do touch on a much more interesting question though
The question of whether the cures for AGW are worse than the problem. A very complicated question that is much more interesting than the long settled elementary level question of whether AGW is real.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 15, 2016 - 01:17pm PT
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I'd have more respect for the puds of the world if they'd simply admit they don't give a sh#t instead of engaging in mental masturbation about the science, which they are ignorant about.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 15, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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I'd have more respect for the puds of the world if they'd simply admit they don't give a sh#t instead of engaging in mental masturbation about the science, which they are ignorant about.
I don't give a shitt about you or your opinion. That's a start, right?
One does not stop caring about the environment simply because they choose not to take a ride on the paranoid express.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 15, 2016 - 05:14pm PT
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You should worry mouse. Worry a lot. Lose sleep over it.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Apr 16, 2016 - 11:02pm PT
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Sarah Palin is now a spokesperson for the Climate Change Deniers. Apparently she will be joining
Texas Republican Lamar Smith in a panel discussion following the screening of the documentary film Climate Hustle. It is hard to imagine a more absurd event.
There is a definite political agenda… to make us think we can somehow change the weather by growing government”
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/15/sarah-palin-bill-nye-climate-change-hustle-film
If Sarah Palin's involvement as a spokesperson for Global Warming Denial doesn't demonstrate how intellectually bankrupt that movement is, then nothing will.
Marc Murano, former communications director for Senator Inhofe, is the producer of the film Climate Hustle, which is endorsed by world renowned Climate Scientist, Sarah Palin ;-(
Prior to working for Senator Inhofe, Morano was a journalist with Cybercast News Service, which is owned and operated by the Media Research Center (MRC). The MRC is supported in part by right-wing foundations and funding from industry, including over $200,000 from ExxonMobil. From 1992 to 1996, Morano also worked as a producer for the Rush Limbaugh Television Show and was known as “Limbaugh's man in Washington.”
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 16, 2016 - 11:29pm PT
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The question of whether the cures for AGW are worse than the problem. A very complicated question that is much more interesting than the long settled elementary level question of whether AGW is real.
Duh
The question of whether the cures for AGW are worse than the problem. A very complicated question that is much more interesting than the long settled elementary level question of whether AGW is real.
Duh
The question of whether the cures for AGW are worse than the problem. A very complicated question that is much more interesting than the long settled elementary level question of whether AGW is real.
and DUH again....
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 17, 2016 - 08:53am PT
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It has been mathematically shown that if the Earth's atmosphere did NOT contain 200ppm of greenhouse gases, we would plunge into a deep freeze.
Malemute, thanks for bringing us up-to-date on that stat. And, we've blown past 400ppm.
Now, can we let this thread pass on because the question has been answered with the conclusions of solid scientific research?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Apr 17, 2016 - 09:18am PT
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Palin questioning science...Seriously..? Guess she's feeling cocky now that she's located Russia on a map..How much are the Kochs paying her to rally the knuckle dragging motor heads..?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 17, 2016 - 09:36am PT
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What do you know about science?
my master thesis in geology investigated pluvial Lake Owens. Specifically I looked at the desiccation of the lake due to climate change. The premiss of my thesis was that sediments exposed when the lake dried up were mobilized by winds and deposited on soils (in particular glacial moraines and alluvial fans). We use soils as relative dating tool for moraines. Results of my studies were positive and I showed quantitatively that for soils where these fine grained sediments were deposited are indeed younger than their profile indicate (increased oxidation, higher fine silt content, increased clay development [in my study mostly kaolinite]). Intuitively we knew this to be the case but lacked the quantitive data (I was able to isolate a particular grain size). Don Garlick who is a true genius had no questions for me my story was so tight. This was not usual as Don was notorious for picking apart grads and undergrads alike.
I can discuss Quaternary climate fluctuations at length (my grad advisor gave us all a tip - we should be able to draw out the climate curve for the last 250K years on the back of a bar napkin in detail).
You've another question for me denier?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 17, 2016 - 09:55am PT
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The question of whether the cures for AGW are worse than the problem
As Largo might say, this could be the crux of the cookie.
But at this stage I don't think anything could save Miami, whose problems are compounded by ground water.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Apr 17, 2016 - 03:12pm PT
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I was asked for solutions. That is simple. Use less fossil fuels. Switching to natural gas as a transportation fuel would help a lot, but we really don't have a green transportation fuel. Even your electric car is charged from a power station, most likely coal.
This is all about simple household economics. If an alternative showed up, and it was cheaper, it would be like building a better mousetrap. The world would beat a path to your door.
The simplest answer is to use less. We waste an incredible amount of fossil fuels. We are 5% of world population, yet use 25% of world production. Those numbers change a little from year to year, but not by much. If gas was 10 bucks a gallon, we would start carpooling more, we would drive only when necessary, and try to save money.
One way to accomplish this is a very hefty consumption tax on fossil fuels. Coal is the dirtiest, show it should be the most, oil less so, and natural gas at the bottom, but they should all be taxed.
This idea was considerably debated during the Clinton administration, but it never got political traction. I make every dime of my income from oil and gas production that I have found, and although I've found several orders of magnitude more oil and gas than this group, their families, and groups of friends will ever use, I beg you not to use too much of it.
That is hard with 2 dollar gas.
I sometimes count cars as they pass. I see pickups and SUV's most often. I see a Honda Civic rarely, and a hybrid is incredibly rare, although I know people who own them.
That's it. Cut our consumption. We KNOW that we don't need to be using this much oil, yet our behavior doesn't change. It has to hit you hard in the pocketbook to affect your behavior. Nobody is truly an altruist. It has to be done by economic force.
A gallon of gas should cost at least 8 bucks. This tax needs to be put on the consumer, not the producer. It would cut worldwide demand by a lot.
This country was built on plentiful oil. The US has produced more oil and gas than any country except Saudi Arabia. However, they have a lot still in the ground. We are picking up scraps by drilling horizontals that require 80 dollar oil to pay out. We have very little left in the ground.
We still need the stuff. Oil is an incredible substance. You can put it into an airplane and fly across oceans on one tankload. It's energy density is crazy good. A cup of it will take a truck up a steep hill. It would take 50 men an hour to accomplish what that single cup can do.
That part of can't be replaced. However, our grandchildren will curse us when the US oil reserves have been depleted. We have, and do, waste too much. Go to EIA.gov and read the figures until you are blue in the face. You can't argue with simple arithmetic.
EIA, the Energy Information Agency, tracks everything to do with fuels of all types. It is an incredible and non-partisan repository of facts.
If you really care about this issue, you need to spend a few days surfing their site. Production by Country, going back 60 years. Consumption by Country, also going back 60 years. They write articles on oil and gas and solar, explaining the economic restraints that limit or promote them.
But it comes down to convenience and the low cost of fossil fuels. The only thing to do to cut consumption is to tack on a 5 dollar a gallon tax.
No politician will ever do this. They might as well slit their own throat.
Personally, I believe that we are all screwed. Climate change will continue, but we will all be long dead before sea level really rises. We use it and see no immediate bad effects. The bad effects are long term, on the order of 100-200 years. We are unable to think that far into the future.
Same reason that we continue to grow the national debt. Nobody complains. It isn't much of an issue in this election, I know that. Climate change isn't either. It is a distant problem that will affect our great grandchildren.
It won't wipe out the human race. What it will do is change the geography of where we live and grow things. I live in Oklahoma. I have many meteorology friends. One worked at NCAR in the climate group. He had seen the models of future impacts. I asked him what Oklahoma would look like in 100 years. He responded: "Nevada."
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Apr 17, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
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Suppose we could cut our future Co2 emissions to 0. This would not fix things as the process is very far along. Atmospheric Co2 will stay around for a long time.
The biggest sink for global warming is the ocean by far. It will take a very long time for the oceans to cool down.
Of course if we stick to the current path we are triple f*ed. If we do fix things starting now we are merely f*ed
We did this to ourselves.
For the take on sea level rise and Florida google Hal Wanless. He is the head of the Dept of Geology at Univ of Miami. A great guy and a good geologist
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Apr 17, 2016 - 08:22pm PT
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For the take on sea level rise and Florida google Hal Wanless. He is the head of the Dept of Geology at Univ of Miami. A great guy and a good geologist
That's true. A thoughtful, careful scientist.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 17, 2016 - 08:37pm PT
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Not that the politics is any better than climate change, but Florida/Feds need to start planning what to do with Miami. It is probably not going to be cost effective to provide flood protection for southern Florida in a 100 years time.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 18, 2016 - 01:58pm PT
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William Gray Dies
Another AGW critic passes away. He called the whole thing a "hoax."
Yes, Miami is in trouble and trading in your car for a bicycle won't help.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
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The question of whether the cures for AGW are worse than the problem. A very complicated question that is much more interesting than the long settled elementary level question of whether AGW is real.
Therein lies the problem that everyone wants to ignore. I suspect most "deniers" simply "feel" that the cure is worse than the disease, but don't want to bother with the difficult analysis of really making a decision. And i suspect that most "believers" simply "feel," by the same process, that the disease is worse than the cure.
Polling economists about what to do is, to this economist and AEA member, an admission that someone has no clue. How can I decide for anyone but myself what actions are or are not "worth it?" A competent economist, like a competent scientist, can give you ranges and options and trade-offs, but I can't decide for you.
Put differently, don't expect the majority of people living now to support drastic lifestyle changes if you can't convince them about why they need to act that way. A competent advocate knows that one needs to convince an opponent (or a court) to listen to you before you can convince them of anything you say. Until we cut the insults and confront the economic issue directly in determining what actions are or are not worth the cost, our "discussions" will most likely result in inaction which, I believe, is not the best option for humanity.
John
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 18, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
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Aside from the air pollution burning oil causes, has anyone ever talley'd up the gigantic void we are making underneath the earths crust?
Afterall we're pumping out a "solid" material at the rate of something like; 600,000,000 55gal drums worth a day? then dispensing it into the atmosphere.
The "hole" must be the size of the moon by now!? lol.
It should be reasonable to think that removing all that oil should contribute to earthquake frequency?
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