Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
|
If the story in the bible is all true, then we would be able to find historical evidence, and the same magic that Jesus was able to conjure would be common place.
There is No historical evidence, there is no evidence that the laws of nature can violated, we are supposed to believe that intervention from God was going on left and right back then, and only then and not anymore,
and a great liberal being respected as the Man God but now he's not a liberal but instead a conservative that wants to shame the poor and make sure women can't get birth control???
It's all good to be true
and it only lives in a book, no where else
Jesus is completely unknown outside the bible.
If you were Godistians, then maybe I could go along with it as at least your God is God,
but surrendering to Jesus, the supposed son of God?
It's just to easy to pick apart as being complete BS.
Why pray to someone other than God, that makes no sense?
Why should anyone believe any of it?
and answering our questions with bible quotes makes all the worse
Not a single question was answered in my definition of what would be considered valid
You would think that at least we could know what happened to Cosmic, but that was just swept away with all the other bull
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
|
He could not answer these questions, nor can anyone, because their are no answers in the bible to these questions
We can't even define love
so to call God Love is just another way to say you have No idea what's going on
it's all just pandering
Some of us can answer questions
we don't need to pander to an ideology
We can just site the scientific research on the subject which would be valid answer or explanation of the issue in question
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 03:51pm PT
|
I worshipped nothing
are you insane, what kind of BS is this
Why f*#k with me now? I'm just challenging Christians, they asked for it
Did I offend your delicate sensibilities? oh boo hoo
we can't question them anymore?
Did a rod get inserted?
are you the ST PC patrol now?
I'm the one that said we can't define love, so obviously I can't define it as well.
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
|
I did ask to challenge Christians, and I will continue to challenge them
and when I get a reasonable response, then I will consider becoming a Christian
or when I have solid evidence for God, I will then believe in him
They have all failed to move the needle
Did I attack anyone personally?
No
I just posted my opinions that many here share
Yet I get attacked,
when do I get to attack back?
Oh I better not, I will leave it be
and BTW, I can add or delete anything I want
at anytime I want
|
|
Karen
Trad climber
Prescott, AZ ~ God's country!!!!
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 04:06pm PT
|
Craig, what do you put your faith in? And do you have any innate need for spirituality? Just curious, thanks!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 04:06pm PT
|
Just log into cloud,
he's up there ..... :-)
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 04:08pm PT
|
I am a spiritual atheist
I "love" life and live in the here and now best I can
I have no faith in anything
nor do I need it
No anything can save you, you have to save yourself
vvvv
can you believe this guy?
do we really need this negativity?
I say pandering and he goes nutso
stock answers that say nothing but appeal to Christian ideology is pandering
He's the only one whining here
poor baby
can't handle a civil debate w/o getting offended I guess
has to bring it down
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
|
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 05:00pm PT
|
Donini! I LIKE! that photo!
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 08:14pm PT
|
When saying the things that you believe, you often cite a bible verse as the reason that you believe your belief is true.
I believe the Bible was inspired by God and that relying on its teachings is relying on God (2nd Timothy 3:16-17)
But then you also cite a bible verse as the reason that you believe the Bible is true. To me, that sounds like a crazily circular way to form beliefs.
How do you tell the difference between believing that the bible is true because the bible tells you to believe it's true, and you telling yourself to believe that the bible is true because that's what you tell yourself to believe?
|
|
cintune
climber
Colorado School of Mimes
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
|
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 09:18pm PT
|
Of course the history of Christianity shows that the faith prospers under oppression.
My perusal of history has taught me that oppressed & challenged Christians are happy Christians, so I expect many more posts on the thread.
Of course, when those that defined themselves as Christians didn’t feel quite as oppressed, they brought our world the dark ages, the ”kill the Jews” crusades from the middle ages to Hitler in WWII, the Spanish conquest of the Americas in the name of Christ, various other wars & killings done in the Name of God, & witch-burnings.
Limpingcrab? Those folks all thought of themselves as good Christians. Do you have an explanation why they will share heaven with you?
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
|
When saying the things that you believe, you often cite a bible verse as the reason that you believe your belief is true.
But then you also cite a bible verse as the reason that you believe the Bible is true. To me, that sounds like a crazily circular way to form beliefs.
How do you tell the difference between believing that the bible is true because the bible tells you to believe it's true, and you telling yourself to believe that the bible is true because that's what you tell yourself to believe? I see your point and in a way, you're right. Each person who knows Jesus probably has a different answer for this. For me, I believed there had to be some sort of God because of my background in science. Once I reached that point, I read a lot about various beliefs about God and, for some of the reasons I listed in my first response in this thread, I believed that Jesus was the answer. Because I believe the Bible is the word of God and the story of Jesus I use it to form my beliefs. Since then I have experienced what it's like to know and love Jesus. Not to mention how crazy it is that a book can have such a perfect story, from beginning to end, when it was written by so many people in different places at different times. It's easier for me to believe that there is a God than it is for me to believe humans were able to pull it off.
Some people personally experience the power of Jesus and then believe there must be a God. Other people use reason and logic and end up with a belief in Jesus. Books like "C.S. Lewis's Case for Christ" and "The Case For Christ" by Lee Stroble do an amazing job of explaining how they, former athiests, ended up with faith in Jesus. I'd recommend those books to anyone looking for answers about the veracity of the Bible or much more eloquent answers to the questions posed in this thread. They are outstanding books and should be read by anyone who wants to make an educated decision about atheism vs Christianity. Read them alongside books opposing Christianity and see what you think.
Of course the history of Christianity shows that the faith prospers under oppression.
My perusal of history has taught me that oppressed & challenged Christians are happy Christians, so I expect many more posts on the thread.
Of course, when those that defined themselves as Christians didn’t feel quite as oppressed, they brought our world the dark ages, the ”kill the Jews” crusades from the middle ages to Hitler in WWII, the Spanish conquest of the Americas in the name of Christ, various other wars & killings done in the Name of God, & witch-burnings.
Limpingcrab? Those folks all thought of themselves as good Christians. Do you have an explanation why they will share heaven with you? I believe heaven is for those that accept the love and forgiveness of Jesus (John 1:12, Romans 10:8-9). The bible also teaches that if we accept Jesus and continue in sin, then our belief wasn't real (Romans 6:1-2, Hebrews 10:26). This doesn't mean that we can't still screw up, but that we are not changed and are not experiencing the love of Jesus so we live like we did before. I believe salvation is not a location, but a direction.
Maybe some of those people really weren't following Christ and just wanted power and money and political gain, or maybe they really believed they were doing the right thing because they applied Old Testament stories of God giving the land of people who had rejected him to the Israelites (His chosen people). If they read the whole Bible I think they would have seen that this is not at all what Jesus wants from us (Matthew 5:44).
I believe that anyone who is truly after God's heart will be guided by God (Proverbs 3:5-7) but I can't tell what was in the hearts of the people who did terrible things in the name of religion, and I don't know which of them will get to spend eternity with God. I am sad that they did those things because so many people use that as a reason for rejecting Jesus. Too many people judge Christ by what misguided people do instead of by what he taught and wanted from us. I think people do terrible things, but Jesus doesn't.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 10:14pm PT
|
I thought this thread would be about the presidential election so I never bothered to click on it until tonight when my curiosity got the best of me. How wrong I was. You just can't outguess thread titles. Will I ever learn?
Right now I see I am 245 posts behind. I may never catch up but I'll give a stab at it only because my best friend jesus changed my life, gave me life, saved my life, my marriage and really, truly is my everyday best friend.
I am a pragmatist. "Truth is preeminently to be tested by the practical consequences of belief." Merriam-Webster's. However, I am not an intellectual. I am Lynne.
Mungeclimber, I had to look up two of your word questions...ontological and Cartesian, and I have to say neither of the two along with your third, quantity of faithful, to me are even close to being the best, most cohesive logical argument for the existence of God.
StahlBro, your question could fuel a new thread that would get hundreds of hits.
GDavis, you raise several great questions.
I read on and see the interchange between Donini and HermitMaster and I have to say it is totally NOT about religion.
If you read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the new part of the Bible....or just Matthew...you see that jesus was the biggest anti religious person of his time. He never established a "church", he never asked for donations and he fought the established church until they killed him. He broke religious traditions and rules, and taught people to forgive and love.
And now to answer you, GDavis. I was born and raised into a Christian faith. It only worked for so long. You see jesus doesn't want a religious adoptee, he wants you to know him and know him for real. I knew all the religious facts, but when I was older and went to a Christian (no way) University it all appeared to me like a shell game. My German teacher was a total bigot to the one black guy in our class and treated him miserably. I took a class in Judeo Christian principles. What a joke. GDavis, I didn't practice other religions but I sure explored them one by one. They helped me no more than the religion I'd been raised in.
I left the University and went home. I got married. We had a child. Lots of life happened, none of it easy. After 3 years our marriage fell apart. My husband took our son and left AZ where he was attending school and went back to Ca. I'd had it with life. I swore I would never go back to Ca where all our family and friends lived.
Now this is where it gets interesting. I found this out later. My husband went back to work for his Dad and one day a person Dan knew in high school came into the shop. The last time Dan had seen him was driving down the freeway and the guy was in the back of an Orange County jail truck. Well this guy asks Dan how he's doing. Dan tells him his life is falling apart. The friend tells Dan his life also fell apart and thru a series of events he asked jesus to be his best friend. He told Dan that God could help him too and together they prayed for jesus to be Dan's best friend.
They began to pray for me and for our marriage. Tho I had sworn I would never step foot back into Ca, I found myself staying with a friend in San Diego. One day her phone rang. It was Dan. He told me about his life change and asked if we could give it another chance. I was at the end of the end. I had to make a decision. OK. He and a friend came and got me. I sat alone in the back seat. They both reminded me that I had been a Christian. I replied, "you don't believe in those fairy tales, do you?"
Lots happened over the next several months. Nothing good. One night Dan and friends took me to a Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, Ca. The only reason I went was because we were living with Dan's parents and they were not to pleased with me, leaving their son and their grandson.
Dressed in leather hot pants and tall boots I walked into the church defying anyone to say anything. No one did. At the end of the service the pastor, Chuck Smith, said words I will never forget. I still see the ventilation duct with a piece of white plastic tape blowing gently in the cool air.
"If someone offered you a banquet table with everything you ever wanted on it would you push it away?" I thought, "No, you'd be crazy to." Then he said, "Where are you tonight? Have you tried plan A,B,C and none of them have worked?" And I thought, yeah. Then he explained about giving your life to jesus. My heart pounded hard. He said come on up and let us pray with you. I SO did not want to but there was something.....I thought I would die, but I got up and walked up. My life has never been the same.
I have been thru good times, great times and times of tremendous grief and pain, but my best friend has always been there. He hasn't been there always like I wanted him to be. Our marriage was challenged again, our daughter lost the sight in one eye, Dan got Hodgkins Disease, finances were tough and Dan died 8 years ago. But our marriage became so very special, we survived so much, learned so much and loved so much. We ended up with four incredible kids and now grand kids. Looking back, I know for sure I would have been dead by 24 years of age.
You can argue about the best, most cohesive, logical argument for the existence of God...or you can meet him and know him. He's the best friend you'll ever have. Hey, he steered me to Super Topo and all you great people. :) If you do nothing else go out to the wilderness and read Matthew Chapters 5,6 and 7. If we lived it the planet would be different.
Sure you gotta start out by a leap of faith, but it works.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 10:30pm PT
|
s. For me, I believed there had to be some sort of God because of my background in science.
Do tell, got to be a good one...
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 11:07pm PT
|
Thanks limpingcrab.
So if the real reason that you believe that the bible is the Truth is for some other reasoned descriptions and arguments, why do you cite those bible verses when you express that belief? Force of habit of expression or thinking? Or are those bible verses the most convincing and compelling defense of your belief in the bible as Truth that you can offer?
I appreciate you saying that forming the belief that you did was the easiest one for you to form. I think humans are like that. Different beliefs are easier for many other people.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 11:18pm PT
|
God has spoken to me on any number of occasions, I think.
Come to think of it he may have done so today while I was negotiating with
a car salesman. This wasn't my first rodeo and I knew I was being led down
a path of the 6000 year old Earth but he did it was such grace that I knew
that my Karma would benefit from humoring him, even at my expense. On the
other hand I also know that noblesse oblige is a burden some of us must
acknowledge as a privilege to be shared with our fellow sinners, right, Werner?
OMMMMMMMMMMMM!
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2016 - 11:50pm PT
|
You know, lots of people here and in the world are gonna say ...
"Doooooh!
Can I have a do-over now that I know everything these people of faith were saying to me is true regarding Yeshua? Dang it I screwed up."
The answer is "No. You can't."
Hebrews 9:27 (KJV)
"27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
Figure it out with G-d's help before its too late. Listen to people of faith. Take a step of faith toward Yeshua. Ask him into your life and ask for forgiveness.
Keep up the great apologetics limpincrab. ST needs it.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
Yep....ST needs a catechism lesson to save all of the souls of the poor wayward non-believers....carry on.
|
|
Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
|
|
It has always been hard to be a nonbeliever in my family. I am the only one and everyone else has some kind of pseudo-Christianity and says they believe in God. They don't practice any Christianity but they still say they believe in some kind of diety and the hereafter.
My father was a minister until my parents divorce in1970. After which they both left the church but my dad, who had a 25 year career in law enforcement career after that, continues continues to be a believer. My mom passed away with a healthy suspicion of any church types due to the hypocrisy she saw in Christian church hierarchies.
As a child we traveled around a lot due to my dads ministry and he preached at several churches of different denominations. I was raised on hard revivalism and evangelist principles and was expected to study and read the Bible repeatedly, which I did of course multiple times through. Getting saved and witnessing to people was part and parcel to the whole thing too. For many in the church, getting other people converted and saved is a way to validate their own conviction as well.
After I turned away from religion and begin to have my own mind it always struck me odd when people would try to get me saved always assuming that I knew nothing about the scriptures, god's love, etc, etc, and they were so concerned about the welfare of my immortal soul. They had no clue as to what I have gone through to deprogram myself from religious thinking. It's a process I'm still working on and difficult in our Judeo Christian-based society.
I can't even swear properly without dredging up the name of a deity and the punishment he would mete out, ha ha. Many of the Christians I have run into since I became an agnostic, then later an atheist, had no idea about the reasons I have to believe what I believe, The history of my turning away from faith, and the ostracizing I have experienced from so called children of God who espouse that we should ask ourselves, "what would Jesus do?" and then shun you when you disagree or do not want to believe in their faith.
I've had enough of religion to last a hundred lifetimes and I only am posting here to voice a contrary position to the fervor, cultism, and brainwashing that sometimes becomes the end result of many people's illogical faith.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!