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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Nov 13, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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Interesting exchange between the leading Repugnicrat candidate and the French Embassador.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Nov 13, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
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Instead you turn your head in complete denial of the horror and allow "your enemy" to continue slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent human beings.
Was Chief comparably horrified when the US-led sanctions against Iraq led to the deaths of between 200,000 and 500,000 children age five or younger? Or in the ensuing Bush-led invasion that lead to the violent deaths of — at a bare minimum — 170,000 more civilians?
And no, I'm not turning my head or in denial. I support military action against ISIS — though Chief's reading comprehension is poor enough that he probably missed that.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 13, 2015 - 09:48pm PT
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Was Chief comparably horrified when the US-led sanctions against Iraq led to the deaths of between 200,000 and 500,000 children age five or younger Source
And were these the unanimously approved UN Sanctions (Resolutions 661 and 687) stemming from Iraq's slaughtering invasion of Kuwait in Aug of 90?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 13, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
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Mr Norman,
How many Iraqi soldiers died because of US-led sanctions against Iraq?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 13, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
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No one really knows how many deaths were attributed to Hussien's decision to invade Kuwait and the ensuing UN Sanctions in response.
Hussien NOT the US are at fault. But then that is how you libs roll. It's the US's fault that Hussein chose to INVADE KUWAIT.
Estimates of deaths due to sanctions
Estimates of excess deaths during the sanctions vary widely, use different methodologies and cover different time-frames.[31][38][39] Some estimates include (some of them include effects of the Gulf War in the estimate):
Mohamed M. Ali, John Blacker, and Gareth Jones estimate between 400,000 and 500,000 excess under-5 deaths.[40]
UNICEF: 500,000 children (including sanctions, collateral effects of war). "[As of 1999] [c]hildren under 5 years of age are dying at more than twice the rate they were ten years ago." (As is customary, this report was based on a survey conducted in cooperation with the Iraqi government and by local authorities in the provinces not controlled by the Iraqi government)[41]
Former U.N. Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq Denis Halliday: "Two hundred thirty-nine thousand children 5 years old and under" as of 1998.[42]
"Probably ... 170,000 children", Project on Defense Alternatives, "The Wages of War", 20 October 2003[43]
350,000 excess deaths among children "even using conservative estimates", Slate Explainer, "Are 1 Million Children Dying in Iraq?", 9. October 2001.[44]
Economist Michael Spagat: "very likely to be [less] than half a million children" because estimation efforts are unable to isolate the effects of sanctions alone due to the lack of "anything resembling a controlled experiment",[45] and "one potential explanation" for the statistics showing an increase in child mortality was that "they were not real, but rather results of manipulations by the Iraqi government."[45]
"Richard Garfield, a Columbia University nursing professor ... cited the figures 345,000-530,000 for the entire 1990-2002 period"[46] for sanctions-related excess deaths.[47]
Zaidi, S. and Fawzi, M. C. S., (1995) The Lancet British medical journal: 567,000 children.[48] A co-author (Zaidi) did a follow-up study in 1996, finding "much lower ... mortality rates ... for unknown reasons."[49]
Amatzia Baram, Director of the Center for Iraq Studies at the University of Haifa, reported almost no difference in the rate of Iraq’s population growth between 1977 and 1987 (35.8 percent) and between 1987 and 1997 (35.1 percent), suggesting that the sanctions-related death rate is lower than reported, while also stating "Every child who suffers from malnutrition as a result of the embargo is a tragedy".[50]
Reports made in 2004 and 2007 by Iraqi government do not show any increase but a stagnation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Nov 13, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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I'm sure your Google is strong enough to find that number, Chaz.
And Chief uses Iraqi government claims to cast doubt on the more reliable estimates in the peer-reviewed literature. Presumably because he fears and rejects science. Yes, there is considerable uncertainty. No, there is not a great deal of controversy. The preponderance of evidence says that sanctions killed a lot of children. Six figures.
I would add that this happened mainly under Bill Clinton's administration. Unlike Chief, not all of my opinions are partisan.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
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So Spine, are you now going to blame Bush Sr. for Hussien's choice to invade Kuwait and conduct the slaughtering of innocent Kuwaitee civilians that his soldiers administered during their time in Kuwait?
During the 7-month occupation, the forces of Saddam Hussein looted Kuwait's vast wealth and there were also reports of violations of human rights.[47] A 2005 study revealed that the Iraqi occupation had a long-term adverse impact on the health of the Kuwaiti populace.
Oh, that was all Bush Sr's fault.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:04pm PT
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So Spine, are you now going to blame Bush Sr. for Hussien's choice to invade Kuwait and conduct the slaughtering of innocent Kuwaitee civilians that his soldiers administered during their time in Kuwait?
No.
Next spectacularly stupid question?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
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Then why Spiney did you even bring up UN Resolution 661 as a result of Hussein's choice to invade Kuwait and brutalize 1000's of innocent Kuwaitee citizens for over seven months?
Next totally useless and non-attributing distraction, Spiney.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
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The Chief apparently has poor short-term memory and can't remember the context of the thread a few posts above.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:13pm PT
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Chief, we know you think you're God's gift to real Patriots...
... now stop barking out orders about why the other 9/10s of America should believe your fantasies...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
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... now stop barking out orders about why the other 9/10s of America should believe your fantasies..
Fantasies? I believe that 10/10s of France does right at this very moment. Cus to them, it aint NO fantasy. It is their reality. But you obviously do not believe that either. Typical.
I pray and hope that the horrofest that occurred in Paris does not happen here. Cus if does, 10/10's of America will wake the fk up and demand that the can of whoop azz to be unleashed. Just as they did on 9/12/2001.
Sadly, that is what may need to happen in order for spoiled clown bag Americans as yourself to realize the extent of what is truly happening in the world right now.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
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Chaz: Are you even literate? At no point did I EVER say a word that a person of even average intelligence could interpret as support for the actions of ISIS. Maybe if you got off your dumb ass and actually learned something about the history of the Middle East, starting with the U.S. involvement in the installation of the Shah of Iran, culminating in the full responsibility of both of the Bush administrations for the complete destruction of Iraq, you would have at least the beginnings of an understanding of what is going on in the Mid-East. That said, two wrongs don't make a right - the murder of innocents is an atrocity, regardless of who is responsible. Why is this too complicated for you to understand?
Hey G.I. Joe - oops - Chief: Did you get one of those calendars with a new word to learn each day and Caliphate came up today? According to my dictionary, the word was actually relatively bland (until ISIS hijacked it, of course).
Speaking of how meaningless mere words can be, maybe you can take your head out of your programmer's ass long enough to ask him why a nation that has a rousing national anthem that celebrates the home of the brave and the land of the free could permit the slave trade to flourish after it was written, not to mention the near total extermination of of its Native population.
Talk is cheap, Chief. Critical thought costs more than you are apparently capable of paying.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
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Hollande will have some heavy explaining as to why the security forces took
two hours to storm the theatre when from the get-go people inside were texting
and tweeting the ongoing horror.
True that. But then again the French Government have a history of hemming and hawing until it is too late. They will do nothing other than wring their hands until someone else steps in to save them.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:43pm PT
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Chief, action is required and will be performed.
Your endless need to assert your "expertise" in all things related to military and terrorism reveals some serious issues that you should deal with...
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:48pm PT
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My point is they stood around doing nothing while people were being methodically executed.
edit: I feel compassion for the dead, wounded and their loved ones. Why did they wait until all were killed before they moved in?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:52pm PT
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johntp, remember that the word 'bureaucracy' is French for prevaricate.
I wouldn't doubt that the security people wanted to go in but were over-ruled
by the politicos. There will be some heavy spin-doctoring.
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