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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 25, 2015 - 12:02am PT
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 25, 2015 - 07:42am PT
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It is OK for climbing to be fun...
... and not always some deep character building near dance with death!
+1
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Aug 25, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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Woah. What a gem. Arguments, trolls, name droppings, chest pounding, graphs and scientific studies. I love it.
For those who only climb in gyms I feel sorry for. They're missing the spirit of the sport. It has always been a sport of nature and wilderness enjoyment, outdoor adventure, discovery, risk, and finding your personal limits. Climbing was always badass more so than any other sport. If you know climbing history you know this to be true. Depends on the generation in question and in context.
You know I hike a very well known mountain here San Diego several times a week and I boulder up and down the mountain for a really good all around workout. Seems I'm the only one doing so. It's not Woodson. The boulders aren't as big, but there are some great gems for sure.
Well one early morning I'm doing so and bouldering right off the trail, and a group of younger hot looking women come hiking by. The tallest prettiest one says, "Wow, I never thought about climbing here before, I've only climbed in a gym." I smiled at her and told her, "I would never admit to that if I were you." She said, "Sad huh?" "Yea. Gyms are great and get you really strong, but your're meant to use those skills outside. Look around. There are a lot of really fun good boulders here and it's free." She smiled.
I always thought climbing on boulders, scrambling around local hills and cragging in Yosemite was training for climbing real mountains. Like those with double cornices and altitude above 19,000ft. If you never climbed a real mountain like that, I feel sorry for you. The time you spent bouldering around is a complete waste if you don't apply those skills on faces that can kill you. Objective danger has to be high and protection shitty. If you never rapped from a snow picket in powder snow or a one inch deep v thread in rotten ice, you must be a complete dipsh#t.
Attempt at satire through tongue in cheek humor...
Seems like everyone has a different drive. Different idea of what is too scary or fun. It is a personal satisfaction that each individual seeks from climbing. Different people have different motivations and different interpretation of what is it that they as individual want to achieve in climbing. Any sort of climbing can keep one healthy and mentally a bit more stable. Some could do it because it is something better than being preoccupied with thoughts of suicide and some could do it because it could be, well, damn fun!
By the way, many would benefit from reading The Warrior's Way. It has helped me to recognize when my own ego is getting in the way and be more honest with myself and others. Some good stories and tips to decrease the fear of falling or failing. Helps one grow a sack and be a real man, unlike those leg humping latte sipping transvestites found in your local gym, usually preoccupied with pleasing women. :)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 25, 2015 - 08:28am PT
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So I'm interested in your data Ed - the simple number of first ascents in Yosemite which included female names, compared to the number of first ascents.
ugh, I'll try, but teasing out gender from names is an exercise fraught with problems... tried it once in a thread somewhere around here and was utterly discouraged... thought lots of corrections...
Kevin, what has changed and what has not changed?... I'm not sure the numbers of FA seeking climbers, in absolute terms, has changed that much over the decades, but the vast majority of climbers now do not participate in FAs.... as the fraction of women climbers has increased, so has their participation in FAs... but let me see if I can quantify that.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 25, 2015 - 08:30am PT
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(I thought we were completely trolling each other with our first two posts about gender, and I hoped this thread was going to about climbing as "sport" versus "discipline." My first post is mostly about that, actually...)
During the early climbing days that rgold described, women were not expected to or encouraged to participate in "sport" as we know it. As Ed H pointed out more eloquently than I, climbing was not really a sport then. I think the fact that ANY women participated in adventure climbing speaks not to the adventurousness or athleticism of women (or of men), but to the appeal of climbing itself. No matter what generalizations one believes about men and women, something about that style of climbing clearly appeals to a small subset of both genders, even if it seems to run contrary to societal expectations of athleticism and independence.
It is not at all surprising that the demographic drawn to climbing-as-sport and climbing-as-adventure is very different, but I don't think gender is the interesting dividing line.
Gender actually might be an interesting divide in high-risk sport in general, but I don't know the numbers, I'm not familiar with those sports, and even then the debate will still flounder when it reaches the "nature v nurture" question.'
Ed: yikes, I could see that analysis being a total bear with names like "Chris," "Jan," Lauren"...
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 25, 2015 - 09:08am PT
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Hey DMT,
If you and your climbing girlfriends were sitting talking shop about climbing, no men around, do you or would you encourage or be encouraged to do risky climbs, first ascents, and possibly be overtly competitive with one another? I am sure that the conversation sounds a bit different when it's just a bunch of women. I think we do less aggressive sh#t-talking; we certainly do some, but it's very obviously facetious.
The rest, though, seems about the same. There's a lot of celebration of those who "get after it," we regale each other with adventure-tales, and we dream up crazy adventures. Perhaps the competition is stated less explicitly, but I think we're doing the same thing y'all are: bragging about our accomplishments and, in the process, lighting a competitive fire for our companions. We just like to pretend we're not competitive and use the word "inspiration" instead.
We discuss motivation and the mental aspect of climbing a fair bit too. I don't have any idea if men do that.
EDIT:
I think instead of sh#t-talking we do more of the "stern no-nonsense encouragement." If someone reports they've been feeling off, climbing poorly, or feeling unmotivated (all things we do talk about openly), the typical response is lovingly aggressive. "Why? How are we going to fix it? You love this activity and you are not allowed to stop trying hard, no debate."
Hope that answers your question.
Cheers,
Cat
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viv.r.e
climber
Sacramento
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Aug 25, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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You guys would get along fine in real life.
My guess is that Kevin and Caitlin have more in common with each other than some person walking down the street in a suit of their same respective gender (unless that person is a climber).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 25, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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That's what climbers with balls talk about.
not all climbers with balls have balls... apparently (in my experience)
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 25, 2015 - 09:25am PT
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we regale each other with adventure-tales, and we dream up crazy adventures
Obviously implicit in this statement is the fact that we talk about rock character, pitch quality, sketchy pro, location of cliffs and lines, etc. That's an essential part of the "adventure-tale."
Also no mention of trying to come up with route names that have sexual connotations that haven't already been used by some other guy. We also (gasp, who would think) make crude jokes about crack climbing, route names, and the unique challenges of wilderness sex and wilderness periods.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Aug 25, 2015 - 09:35am PT
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Helps one grow a sack and be a real man, unlike those leg humping latte sipping transvestites found in your local gym, usually preoccupied with pleasing women. :)
agreed. Those sac-less 5% body fat gym climbers obsessed with plastic grades should aspire to be pudgy, beer swilling, 5.8, 10 on a good day, gear obsessed, crusty steep hikers, preoccupied with sharing a sleeping bag and toothbrush with men, ready to spoon for survival ... aka entry level alpinists
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 25, 2015 - 09:41am PT
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I agree that climbing has become a sport......1% doing it and 99% talking about it is proof for me.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Aug 25, 2015 - 09:46am PT
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I don't know if this goes for all women, but I notice that women support and encourage each other to find their limits and push past them, and celebrate and find inspiration in each success.
There is a kind of competition there, but it's definitely different than the competition I've seen and heard around men.
"You can do it!" as opposed to, "you're lacking balls if you don't"
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Aug 25, 2015 - 10:11am PT
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Wow, my comment was certainly not meant to trigger anyone's issues. Sorry!
But I remember hanging out waiting for a climb in Indian Creek, where a more seasoned guy had put his noob partner on his first crack ever, which was 5.9+, and included wide sections, and his approach was to allow him to sink or swim and the poor guy was getting the sh** kicked out of him.
I just can't remember ever seeing two women do that to each other. Not saying it doesn't ever happen though.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 25, 2015 - 10:15am PT
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"You can do it!" as opposed to, "you're lacking balls if you don't" Daphne, I agree that women usually phrase their encouragement in terms of inspiration versus competition, but do you think the two are fundamentally any different? I think men are just as supportive of their friends' successes, they're just using a different set of words to say the same thing. And we're just as competitive, we're just using friendlier words.
his approach was to allow him to sink or swim My female friends and I do a decent amount of this, but with encouragement. But also heckling. Heckling of love.
I am curious if there's a difference in the way men and women talk about what their limits are and how to push past them. I think we're dealing with the same challenges though.
What an interesting application of the word "gushing" to an extremely matter-of-fact sentence...
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 25, 2015 - 10:55am PT
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You'd make an excellent bawdy bard, dear frenemy.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 25, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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the SuperTopo guide to the Taming of the Shrew?
eh, doubt it would sell well.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Aug 25, 2015 - 11:38am PT
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agreed. Those sac-less 5% body fat gym climbers obsessed with plastic grades should aspire to be pudgy, beer swilling, 5.8, 10 on a good day, gear obsessed, crusty steep hikers, preoccupied with sharing a sleeping bag and toothbrush with men, ready to spoon for survival ... aka entry level alpinists
You almost get it bro. Now let's bring it down a notch and be honest. We don't actually climb 5.8 unless it is in the gym or our 'strong' buddy leads it. The 10 is a mythical rating we have seen Bridwell climb, in a photo. But we can still offer our expert opinion on the internet, so it is all good.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 25, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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Vitaliy, the emperor should be downgraded to 5.8+, since trad climbers can't do anything harder than that :)
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Aug 25, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
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But we can still offer our expert opinion on the internet, so it is all good.
seriously though, I have a lot of respect for alpinism. I just personally don't like to suffer that much.
I don't really understand why so many gym rats don't want to be outdoors either. I primarily boulder and sport climb, but even that level seems to be too much of an effort for many gym minions.
I think that's great though. People like the climbing gym as an alternative to other sorts of fitness activities. Fine with me if they don't go outside, more line-free routes for me, and I don't have to cringe watching bad belaying.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Aug 25, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
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I have no idea why 99% of you craggers don't climb real mountains like real men should. Yes it is nice and sunny in Yosemite. Where you feel comfortable 10 minutes from your car in your bikini. Glad I can have those high mountains and unclimbed faces to myself, without the presence of you Generator crack top roping and aid climbing as#@&%es. Be happy Bonatti is not here to witness this sh#t show....crag on boys.
:)
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