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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 20, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
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Mitt Romney
Former Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney on Saturday joined those calling for South Carolina to remove the Confederate flag from the statehouse grounds in the wake of Wednesday's deadly shooting at a historic black church in Charleston.
"To many, it is a symbol of racial hatred. Remove it now to honor Charleston victims," Romney said in a Twitter post Saturday.
I do not know what Donald Trump thinks or has said.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 20, 2015 - 09:25pm PT
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The legal loophole that allowed Dylann Roof to get get a gun
Show of hands....
How many here really believe that a universal background check law would have been obeyed (or even cared about) by these goofballs?
"Oh, but then at least it would have made the gift illegal!"
Yayyy... but to my knowledge murder is already illegal everywhere in this grand USA.
"Yeaaahhhhh.... we'll just legislate this badness right out of existence!"
Good luck with that.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jun 20, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
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Those who responsibly carry guns do so because they don't merely proxy off their self-defense onto the government.
Who needs a gun for self-defense? Anyone who has posted here up to this point? If so, why?
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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Jun 20, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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it's because fear.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jun 20, 2015 - 09:44pm PT
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Are the people who are passionate about their Constitutional right to own a gun willing to be called out, armed, organized, and disciplined by Congress?
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jun 20, 2015 - 09:45pm PT
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minimize terrorism, hatred and racism. . . . Justify your position how you wish. . . .
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2015 - 10:27pm PT
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DanaB: I'm pretty sure that the answer to your question is...
definitely not.
I'm also just about positive that they actually think that they alone are the rightful owners of the word "patriot."
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 20, 2015 - 10:33pm PT
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Sorry, DNC North holds the copyright on "Patriot."
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 20, 2015 - 10:40pm PT
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Who needs a gun for self-defense? Anyone who has posted here up to this point? If so, why?
Twice in my life. Both times, just revealing my holstered gun was sufficient to "deescalate" the situation.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 20, 2015 - 10:41pm PT
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
I have always been careful to make it clear that I have no animosity to citizens of the United States, and am proud to call many U.S. citizens friends of mine. That said, I have a serious problem with inhabitants of any nation who seem to feel that the possession of lethal weaponry is somehow equated with the size of their penis, and have nothing but contempt for those who shrug off these atrocities as a fair price to pay for their "right" to own firearms.
Face palm.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 20, 2015 - 10:48pm PT
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DanaB: I'm pretty sure that the answer to your question is...
definitely not.
You beg the question. We're talking about a whole church full of people who needed even one or two of them to be armed. But none were, partly thanks to their own pastor who voted to disallow concealed carry in churches.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2015 - 10:50pm PT
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Johnnyrig: I'm actually reasonably fluent in the English language, but I haven't the faintest idea what you're trying to say.
Madbolter: only someone with a soul as sick as yours could sink so low as to blame the victims for their fate. Guns don't kill people, but arseholes with guns sure do.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 20, 2015 - 11:12pm PT
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I'm saying you're insulting everyone in the U.S. who owns a gun. Again. Like, we haven't heard this sh#t before? I'm also cherry-picking a few nuggets from the paper I referenced in deleted posts to this sh#t show of a thread you started. Not that, you know, there aren't plenty of other websites where you can voice your opinion on such topics.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf
Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 7, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
Dear Forum,
We have added a new administrative policy: freezing threads that have devolved mostly into personal attacks. These threads will exist on the site so that earlier posts can live on. But nobody will be able to post to a frozen thread in the future.
Why are we doing this?
We’ve noticed most of the personal attacks on the site come from just a handful of people in just a handful of threads. Most often, these are threads which were off-topic to begin with, but which over time deteriorated into largely political debates. Once politicized, these threads then seem to degrade further into personal attacks. We simply don't want to host these kinds of discussions (despite their popularity), and thus we'd ask you to: a) please refrain from starting politically oriented threads on SuperTopo, and b) don't be surprised if a thread which has become infected with personal attacks is locked to prevent further discussion. While occasionally it is appropriate to delete posters and threads, we prefer not to do this. Hopefully freezing threads that devolve into personal attacks will help with an ongoing effort to keep the forum a friendly and informative resource for climbers of all ages and interests.
Thank you,
RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
May 20, 2015 - 11:56am PT
There are a great many places on the internet where the kinds of discussions Ron most commonly posted on, or started threads on, are appreciated. SuperTopo is simply not the right venue. We hope Ron will find an alternative site to express his many and thoughtful opinions. We'd be happy to have him back too, if he limited posts much more frequently to the kinds of things the climbing forum is intended for and avoid inappropriate posts.
How Many Guns Are in the United States?
The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) reported in a national survey that in 1994, 44 million
people, approximately 35% of households, owned 192 million firearms,...
By 2007, the number of
firearms had increased to approximately 294 million: 106 million handguns, 105 million rifles,
and 83 million shotguns.
How Often Are Guns Used in Homicides?
As Table 1 shows, reports submitted by state and local law enforcement agencies to the FBI and
published annually in the Uniform Crime Reports39 indicate that the firearms-related murder and
non-negligent manslaughter rate per 100,000 of the population decreased from 6.6 for 1993 to 3.6
for 2000. The rate held steady at 3.6 for 2001 and fluctuated thereafter between a high of 3.9 for
2006 and 2007, and a low of 3.2 for 2010. For 2011, it has remained at 3.2.
Table 2. Firearms-Related Deaths for All Ages
1993-2009
Yeara Homicides
Legal
Interventions Suicides Accidents Unknown
Total
Deaths
%
Change
year homicides legal suicide accidents unknown total %change
1993 18,253 318 18,940 1,521 563 39,596
1994 17,527 339 18,765 1,356 518 38,506 -2.8%
1995 15,551 284 18,503 1,225 394 35,958 -6.6%
1996 14,037 290 18,166 1,134 413 34,041 -5.3%
1997 13,252 270 17,566 981 367 32,437 -4.7%
1998 11,798 304 17,424 866 316 30,709 -5.3%
1999 10,828 299 16,599 824 324 28,875 -6.0%
2000 10,801 270 16,586 776 230 28,664 -0.7%
2001 11,348 323 16,869 802 231 29,574 3.2%
2002 11,829 300 17,108 762 243 30,243 2.3%
2003 11,920 347 16,907 730 232 30,137 -0.4%
2004 11,624 311 16,750 649 235 29,570 -1.9%
2005 12,352 330 17,002 789 221 30,695 3.8%
2006 12,791 360 16,883 642 220 30,897 0.7%
2007 12,632 351 17,352 613 276 31,224 1.1%
2008 12,179 326 18,223 592 273 31,593 1.1%
2009 11,493 333 18,735 554 232 31,347 -0.7
Source: National Center for Health Statistics.
I'll add here that while the number of homicides has decreased the number of suicides appears to have remained relatively constant. Consider that at the same time the population has grown, the RATE of suicide would effectively show a reduction. When viewed in the following table of the paper from which this was taken, regarding youths, the number of homicide, suicide, and accidental firearm deaths reduced by roughly half.
How Often Are Firearms Used in Self-Defense?
According to BJS, NCVS data from 1987 to 1992 indicate that in each of those years, roughly
62,200 victims of violent crime (1% of all victims of such crimes) used guns to defend
themselves.46 Another 20,000 persons each year used guns to protect property. Persons in the
business of self-protection (police officers, armed security guards) may have been included in the
survey.47 Another source of information on the use of firearms for self-defense is the National
Self-Defense Survey conducted by criminology professor Gary Kleck of Florida State University
in the spring of 1993. Citing responses from 4,978 households, Dr. Kleck estimated that handguns
had been used 2.1 million times per year for self-defense, and that all types of guns had been used
approximately 2.5 million times a year for that purpose during the 1988-1993 period.48
Why do these numbers vary by such a wide margin? Law enforcement agencies do not collect
information on the number of times civilians use firearms to defend themselves or their property
against attack. Such data have been collected in household surveys. The contradictory nature of
the available statistics may be partially explained by methodological factors. That is, these and
other criminal justice statistics reflect what is reported to have occurred, not necessarily the actual
number of times certain events occur. Victims and offenders are sometimes reluctant to be candid
with researchers. So, the number of incidents can only be estimated, making it difficult to state
with certainty the accuracy of statistics such as the number of times firearms are used in selfdefense.
For this and other reasons, criminal justice statistics often vary when different
methodologies are applied.
Table 4. Brady Background Checks for Firearms Transfers and Permits
1998-2009
year total denials
2009 10,764,237 150,013
Total 95,105,025 1,613,953
Reasons for denial are kind of interesting; but you'll have to get off your lazy ass and read the paper yourself.
And from the CDC:
Number of deaths for leading causes of death
Heart disease: 611,105
Cancer: 584,881
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978
Alzheimer's disease: 84,767
Diabetes: 75,578
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149
You're more likely to die of the flu than a bullet.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 20, 2015 - 11:14pm PT
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only someone with a soul as sick as yours could sink so low as to blame the victims for their fate. Guns don't kill people, but arseholes with guns sure do.
So now accusations of a "sick soul" just for not agreeing with your perspective are fine and dandy. Weak sauce.
Look, to be clear, since you apparently can't get a clue, there is a FACT of the matter. It's an objective FACT of the matter. I cited it as FACT, which (GET THIS!) it is.
There's no "blame," unless you see it as such, which is ironic indeed.
Seemingly, YOU prefer all people to be helpless victims, waiting on cops who will be ten minutes to arrive, instead of having the capacity to fend for themselves.
Personally, that seems really dumb to me. I prefer to have some chance of taking care of myself.
FACT is: the pastor agreed with you and voted the same in his role as legislator. I wonder if he would change his vote had he lived.
"It" will never happen to you until it does. And when it does, you'll apparently just sit there passively and hoping that the cops will FINALLY arrive.
I prefer to not have to wait.
When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away. Remember it. Burn it into your psyche. It is another FACT, and we just saw yet another reminder of that fact.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 20, 2015 - 11:24pm PT
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I'm saying you're insulting everyone in the U.S. who owns a gun. Again. Like, we haven't heard this sh#t before? I'm also cherry-picking a few nuggets from the paper I referenced in deleted posts to this sh#t show of a thread you started. Not that, you know, there aren't plenty of other websites where you can voice your opinion on such topics.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf
Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 7, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
Dear Forum,
We have added a new administrative policy: freezing threads that have devolved mostly into personal attacks. These threads will exist on the site so that earlier posts can live on. But nobody will be able to post to a frozen thread in the future.
Why are we doing this?
We’ve noticed most of the personal attacks on the site come from just a handful of people in just a handful of threads. Most often, these are threads which were off-topic to begin with, but which over time deteriorated into largely political debates. Once politicized, these threads then seem to degrade further into personal attacks. We simply don't want to host these kinds of discussions (despite their popularity), and thus we'd ask you to: a) please refrain from starting politically oriented threads on SuperTopo, and b) don't be surprised if a thread which has become infected with personal attacks is locked to prevent further discussion. While occasionally it is appropriate to delete posters and threads, we prefer not to do this. Hopefully freezing threads that devolve into personal attacks will help with an ongoing effort to keep the forum a friendly and informative resource for climbers of all ages and interests.
Thank you,
RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
May 20, 2015 - 11:56am PT
There are a great many places on the internet where the kinds of discussions Ron most commonly posted on, or started threads on, are appreciated. SuperTopo is simply not the right venue. We hope Ron will find an alternative site to express his many and thoughtful opinions. We'd be happy to have him back too, if he limited posts much more frequently to the kinds of things the climbing forum is intended for and avoid inappropriate posts.
How Many Guns Are in the United States?
The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) reported in a national survey that in 1994, 44 million
people, approximately 35% of households, owned 192 million firearms,...
By 2007, the number of
firearms had increased to approximately 294 million: 106 million handguns, 105 million rifles,
and 83 million shotguns.
How Often Are Guns Used in Homicides?
As Table 1 shows, reports submitted by state and local law enforcement agencies to the FBI and
published annually in the Uniform Crime Reports39 indicate that the firearms-related murder and
non-negligent manslaughter rate per 100,000 of the population decreased from 6.6 for 1993 to 3.6
for 2000. The rate held steady at 3.6 for 2001 and fluctuated thereafter between a high of 3.9 for
2006 and 2007, and a low of 3.2 for 2010. For 2011, it has remained at 3.2.
Table 2. Firearms-Related Deaths for All Ages
1993-2009
Yeara Homicides
Legal
Interventions Suicides Accidents Unknown
Total
Deaths
%
Change
year homicides legal suicide accidents unknown total %change
1993 18,253 318 18,940 1,521 563 39,596
1994 17,527 339 18,765 1,356 518 38,506 -2.8%
1995 15,551 284 18,503 1,225 394 35,958 -6.6%
1996 14,037 290 18,166 1,134 413 34,041 -5.3%
1997 13,252 270 17,566 981 367 32,437 -4.7%
1998 11,798 304 17,424 866 316 30,709 -5.3%
1999 10,828 299 16,599 824 324 28,875 -6.0%
2000 10,801 270 16,586 776 230 28,664 -0.7%
2001 11,348 323 16,869 802 231 29,574 3.2%
2002 11,829 300 17,108 762 243 30,243 2.3%
2003 11,920 347 16,907 730 232 30,137 -0.4%
2004 11,624 311 16,750 649 235 29,570 -1.9%
2005 12,352 330 17,002 789 221 30,695 3.8%
2006 12,791 360 16,883 642 220 30,897 0.7%
2007 12,632 351 17,352 613 276 31,224 1.1%
2008 12,179 326 18,223 592 273 31,593 1.1%
2009 11,493 333 18,735 554 232 31,347 -0.7
Source: National Center for Health Statistics.
I'll add here that while the number of homicides has decreased the number of suicides appears to have remained relatively constant. Consider that at the same time the population has grown, the RATE of suicide would effectively show a reduction. When viewed in the following table of the paper from which this was taken, regarding youths, the number of homicide, suicide, and accidental firearm deaths reduced by roughly half.
How Often Are Firearms Used in Self-Defense?
According to BJS, NCVS data from 1987 to 1992 indicate that in each of those years, roughly
62,200 victims of violent crime (1% of all victims of such crimes) used guns to defend
themselves.46 Another 20,000 persons each year used guns to protect property. Persons in the
business of self-protection (police officers, armed security guards) may have been included in the
survey.47 Another source of information on the use of firearms for self-defense is the National
Self-Defense Survey conducted by criminology professor Gary Kleck of Florida State University
in the spring of 1993. Citing responses from 4,978 households, Dr. Kleck estimated that handguns
had been used 2.1 million times per year for self-defense, and that all types of guns had been used
approximately 2.5 million times a year for that purpose during the 1988-1993 period.48
Why do these numbers vary by such a wide margin? Law enforcement agencies do not collect
information on the number of times civilians use firearms to defend themselves or their property
against attack. Such data have been collected in household surveys. The contradictory nature of
the available statistics may be partially explained by methodological factors. That is, these and
other criminal justice statistics reflect what is reported to have occurred, not necessarily the actual
number of times certain events occur. Victims and offenders are sometimes reluctant to be candid
with researchers. So, the number of incidents can only be estimated, making it difficult to state
with certainty the accuracy of statistics such as the number of times firearms are used in selfdefense.
For this and other reasons, criminal justice statistics often vary when different
methodologies are applied.
Table 4. Brady Background Checks for Firearms Transfers and Permits
1998-2009
year total denials
2009 10,764,237 150,013
Total 95,105,025 1,613,953
Reasons for denial are kind of interesting; but you'll have to get off your lazy ass and read the paper yourself.
And from the CDC:
Number of deaths for leading causes of death
Heart disease: 611,105
Cancer: 584,881
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978
Alzheimer's disease: 84,767
Diabetes: 75,578
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149
You're more likely to die of the flu than a bullet.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 20, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
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I read the whole thing Jrig earlier when you had it up as a PDF, then took it down.
It was a good read and shows that a lot of momey and a few laws have slowed down the gun violence. Im not sure that it even took into account the legions of officers added to cities and states or the monies for it.
It clearly shows more guns with less violence so we must be doing something right. The one thing staying about the same is the amount of mass murders.
MD 1, your a pretty sick individual to place blame on the reverend for not allowing guns in their church.
Seemingly, YOU prefer all people to be helpless victims, waiting on cops who will be ten minutes to arrive, instead of having the capacity to fend for themselves
No, we prefer people not having to live in fear like you.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 20, 2015 - 11:33pm PT
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Yep, no laws or money for suicide which does need more attention.
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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Jun 20, 2015 - 11:33pm PT
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You're more likely to die of the flu than a bullet.
and so I can stop caring about a racially-driven terror attack because I am a [white] gun owner?
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 20, 2015 - 11:35pm PT
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Nope. Just putting it into perspective. People like numbers. I'm offering numbers.
Frankly, I'd like to see the government go after some of our freedoms of speech too, if you're going to insist on going after our freedom of guns. Shut down the hate speech that contribute(ed/s) to the events such as this one. Could ya live with that?
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