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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2015 - 10:37am PT
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LOL!
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rincon
climber
Coarsegold
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Mike, of course there's a difference. If most climbers nowadays think it's the same thing...good for them, but they're wrong.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Not that this really makes any difference to me ( I'm just curious), but when the Wide Boys first did Century Crack with pre hung gear what is that considered? THey came back and did it on run out gear; I mean they really thought it through and had to consider rack weight.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Let me help you out here, you clearly need it.
Yeah Mike! JLP wrote the rulz. And you obviously don't know sh!t.
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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If I hang off pre hung draws is it still 5.7 A0?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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It is all about the "send" now.
Style means nothing in spurt climbing.
Style is a relic.
Style is old people yelling "get of my lawn" at the new radness.
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skitch
Gym climber
Bend Or
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If you think it matters whether or not the draws are pre-hung then you are probably really old, and/or climb easy sh#t.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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If I hang off pre hung draws is it still 5.7 A0?
It depends on how honest your belayer is. Or if you are on toprope.
If you think it matters whether or not the draws are pre-hung then you are probably really old, and/or climb easy sh#t.
Ever done a lead on your own gear (knott bolts)?
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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This is all really about whether or not "it counts", isn't it? Everyone agrees that climbing a steep pumpfest with the draws already hanging makes the climb a bit easier. But wearing climbing shoes and using chalk makes the climb a bunch easier, and no one is splitting hairs over terminology for that style of ascent. The question is does pre-hung draws put an asterisk next to your ascent. Can you simply say "I finally did Great White Behemoth last weekend" or is the full disclosure of "I finally did Great White Behemoth but the draws were already up" what is required?
My feeling on the matter is that pre-hung draws on a sport climb "counts" and you can just call it a redpoint, it doesn't matter. But if you pre-place gear on a trad climb then it doesn't count, and you get the disgraceful pinkpoint ascent. And don't even think about stick clipping the first bolt, because then you get nothing more than a pitiful and humiliating "toprope ascent".
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Breast fed or formula, does it really matter when the climb is 5.15?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2015 - 11:07am PT
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May 8, 2015 - 11:01am PT
It is all about the "send" now.
Style means nothing in spurt climbing.
Style is a relic.
Style is old people yelling "get of my lawn" at the new radness.
Ryand told me exactly that yesterday. I totally respect that, but it doesn't mean i can't follow the rules as i learned them.
The question is does pre-hung draws put an asterisk next to your ascent. Can you simply say "I finally did Great White Behemoth last weekend" or is the full disclosure of "I finally did Great White Behemoth but the draws were already up" what is required?
No. The question is why are we watering down the terminology? The reason you stated above is why people are getting so pissed.
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sDawg
climber
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So I've actually spent time thinking about this question which so easily elicits "that's bullsh*t" as a response. You say it's harder if you hang the draws. Yes, but it's also harder if it's in the sun, or if you're wearing Mythos instead of Solutions. These differences don't merit a separate vocabulary word because they're not significant enough to affect the climber's feeling of accomplishment or the way the redpoint predicts what their next project should be.
Whether most climbers will do the work of even remembering whether the draws were pre-hung or not (I'm sure I have several redpoints where I couldn't tell you whether I hung the draws) depends on whether it's an important enough difference to affect their sense of accomplishment. If I want to re-lead a trad climb after my partner, I ask her to clean the gear because I won't feel like I really did it if the gear is there. Most people don't do this for sport climbs because they don't feel less accomplishment using pre-hung draws. I don't lower off and think "but could I really do it if I placed the draws? Maybe I should come back and try again." F*ck that. It's done. Similarly, if another climber says they redpointed a certain sport route, I don't ask whether they hung the draws before recommending a next step. It's more information, but it doesn't contain more meaning in the conversation. You should not expect other climbers to use the word pinkpoint for a sport climb. You can rant all day, but most won't do it because they really don't care. If you use it, you won't be misunderstood, but you will be judged as caring more for semantics than for actually climbing rocks.
EDIT: I'm not trying to disrespect anyone's process here. Everyone climbs for themselves and there is no greater good. I'm under no illusions that the world would be a better place if everyone would climb in my style. So if you enjoy repeating a climb to hang the draws yourself, or if it advances your process, go for it. Just don't expect anyone else to do the same or to understand why.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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the rules as i learned them. Advice - you're young and your so-called rules were outdated 30 years ago.
If you want to pattern your life around a time that came and went before you were born, carry on. I see a stale, lifeless and very small existence. You'll fit right in here at the Supertopo.
If you want to go somewhere in this sport, suggest you update your play book and keep it open to the constant change and reinvention.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2015 - 11:50am PT
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Thanks for your thoughts sDawg
These differences don't merit a separate vocabulary word because they're not significant enough to affect the climber's feeling of accomplishment or the way the redpoint predicts what their next project should be.
The problem with this is there is already a "separate vocabulary word" that has been in common usage for a long time. Some people just don't seem to like it however.
If I want to re-lead a trad climb after my partner, I ask her to clean the gear because I won't feel like I really did it if the gear is there.
I feel this way about any climb. Again this is MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE, and I am not forcing it on anyone, just stating MY OPINION, which indeed are like a$$holes.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2015 - 11:56am PT
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JLP- i can open my mind to different ways of thinking, but can you reply without trying to make someone feel smaller?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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There can be only one.
Lol Doug!!
Just got this...
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Breast fed is allways best.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sport MUST follow the rules and vocabulary of Trad.
claiming a 'redpoint' with prehung draws is a slippry slope to hangdoggin, gluin, and chippin
just like smoking the pot leads to giving BJs for crack
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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The dialog continues its entertainment.
Relics [i.e. those less than 40 years younger than me, but who care about color-pointing other than yellow pointing] "Pinkpoint does not equal redpoint, so quit calling your wussified ascents redpointing."
Modern climbers: "We don't care, and you're a jackwagon [or words to that effect] by putting down our accomplishments that you couldn't dream about doing."
Me [troglodyte]: "You young'ns spend an awful lot of words and insults on a topic about which you purport not to care! And what's all this fuss about whether it's redpoint or pinkpoint anyway? The adventurous state is on the wane. Any mere athlete can do a sport climb, but it takes craft and cunning to do a 5.6 with proper protection . . ."
John
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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I'm just pissed off that neither the 1990s or 80s are calling me. Anyone else not getting phone calls from these years?
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