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enjoimx
Trad climber
SLO
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Thanks Willbeer! Good to hear. There is a great deal on the Scarpa T-race at sierratradingpost. Do you think the T-race would be a bad idea for a first boot? Ie too stiff??mthe T1 and T2 are out of my size.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2014 - 11:41am PT
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That is a lot of boot.
I have found the t2 to be the best all rounder.
Hear some others opinions as well.
Have Fun.
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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That's not a bad learning setup (Rossi BC + 2 or 3 buckle plastic boot). You can cover ground (somewhat) plus make some turns. There are tradeoffs with a wide waxless setup, like loss of glide and they aren't for aggressive lines, but they do well in-between those two extremes.
You'll want a lighter plastic boot for that setup. Place comfort over power. Most people compare "burliness" of tele boots by number of buckles. A 2 buckle boot is lighter, more suited to "touring" or covering miles in comfort. Whereas a 4 or 5 buckle boot is meant to cinch down tight, provide lots of power transfer from body to skis for more aggressive lines. For you, I'd look for a 2, or a light 3 buckle boot. The Mammoth store has lots of those as I recall, but asking an astronomical amount for a used 2 and 3 buckle tele boots.
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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You do not want a T race, those are on the heavy, burly end of the spectrum. You want the other end of the plastic boot spectrum. Look at buckle count.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
SLO
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Thanks bergbryce. Good information here.
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steve shea
climber
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I swore to myself I would not do this, but here goes.
Those tracks above are on terrain flat as a pancake or those who left them were really slow. How do I know? Really shallow radius turns. No completion of the turn across the fall line to control speed. Of course someone on alpine gear who can buy a turn would not even bother with that boulevard or they would straight line it.
I used to tele, use rotary phones and protect with chromoly. So what. It is an antique technique best done on antique gear for full value. Tele is fun if done, as said upthread, on old stuff. Norrona boots, Madshus classic skis and Kloa bindings.
Anyone who has come up through the ranks knows to be successful in any ski discipline, you must know how to stand on your skis. This offers the most efficient body position, stacking the bones, and a forward, take it down the hill attitude which pressures the tips of the skis. Only a fixed heel transfers optimal energy to the ski tip by pressuring the tongue of the boot. With your heel flopping around you are leaving loads of power on the table. If the ski has no sidecut it does not matter. But most skis do. It is that relationship of the with of the tip, waist and tail that creates the arc. And it all starts by pressuring the tip, rolling on edge and voila! You are turning.
Maybe tele skiers don't care about that. Fine. It is all good as they say. But having tele'd for a long time and being a life long alpine skier as well, I do not understand why some think tele is somehow more sporting. Alpine skiing as a sport to master, all snow all terrain at speed, is supremely more difficult. With tele you can mail it in skidding and one leg squatting your way down the hill. A really inelegant and inefficient turn. Tele while fun is just a day off from alpine. A humorous curiosity. A diversion and worth doing for that alone. But really after unlocking the power of an alpine boot and truly understanding how the system works, tele is a buzz kill for me. Basically you suffer with every turn as you skid around, delusional, thinking you are doing something akin to soloing Cholatse in winter.
Do you know that many expert skiers in the competition side of any discipline are ex alpine ski racers. They learned how to stand on their skis at a young age. The best skiers I know personally here in Jackson Hole have one thing in common, they were all good alpine skiers at one point. Tele, rando, alpine big mt, even some of the best all around snowboard riders have an alpine background. It is all fun and fun is in the eye of the beholder but technically speaking tele is a dumpster fire compared to ripping arcs wall to wall on a well honed alpine setup. My .02.
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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I got into tele because shaped skis took all the skill out of alpining. Skiing at the resort had become boring. Having a half functioning binding and making going down the hill more inefficient seemed like a good way to make skiing interesting again. I was right. Not to mention back then it was really the primary method for touring in the bc.
In hindisght, the day I bought some modern shaped skis in favor of my Olin Mark IVs was a sad one.
As everyone else has mentioned, arguing about which is better is stupid when the end goal is always the same, to have fun sliding on snow.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Hehe.... you pretty much covered it Steve S
But who gives a f*#k really... do what ya like
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steve shea
climber
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Berg, I get your drift. But If you think you mastered alpine because you bought shaped skis you missed the bus some where. Seriously you should take another look. Join an alpine master's race program, learn how to really ski. Then transfer your new found skills to your plank of choice. You will be amazed. Those early shaped skis would tie your legs in knots. Go demo something in the 20m radius range, 85 to 100 underfoot. Early shaped skis were closer to modern slalom skis. 12m or even less. I agree, they sucked. But to say the challenge is gone, is well, just not so. But to each his own.
For full disclosure I have been an alpine ski coach, World Cup Race Technician, Rossignol Race Dept. Rep, Rossi and Sun Valley Ski Tools Rep, and Shred And Slytech rep. Perhaps I am biased. Not saying one is better. But most people give up on alpine thinking they have it figured out or just plateau at a comfortable level. Man there is so much more. If you want the challenge of mastering in and out arcs at 40mph in total control. the cool thing is that the modern technique does not change from snow condition to snow condition. The tool does. That allows consistent body position.
My big challenge now is to become proficient on skate skis. At times I can fly and at others I'm like a dog on ice. But then again "It is a poor workman who blames his tools" Have fun this winter. The tram here in JH opened today, skiing is awesome for this early
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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One thing I never understood, so I've never done it this way and that is...
Skiing the fall line. Sure, I do it to obtain speed, but it sure is tough to stick to just the fall line. I mean, there are usually so many fun hits and whatnot, why would you not hit it?? I grew up surfing and skating, so I naturally snowboarded and looked at the snowy slope like a wave or a bowl.
When I started 'boarding, I would catch crap from skiers for mucking up the mountain and not preserving the snow, etc. One of the elements of t-mark I love the most was the easy ability I had to traverse or skate(pre-corn spring mornings) to hit zones if I found myself away from them or on some broad wide open featureless slope. I know hella folk that love the perfect S's all the way down the run, staying purely on the fall line and that is great for them, YeeHaw! It just seems so limiting to me when one has hits-galore couple hundred to the left or right of the fall line.. Although maybe to some it is about balancing that line and for others, they are just lines to cross
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steve shea
climber
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Wait a minute, skiing riding etc. is tool to snow contact. Anything else is just a circus act with a plank on. Air time, ho hum. Hits? What is that? I thought we were talking glise here. Park and pipe in the Mts is cool but remember skiing riding is ski to snow contact, airtime is something else. If you need transportation laterally across the hill to get to hits(?) then a loose heel probably is good.
Remember Comici? I think it was Comici. You know, my route will follow a drop of water or something to that effect. Direct. That be a fall line. Fall line is good, fall line is fast!
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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Steve, I absolutely appreciate and believe your perspective. But your skills and knowledge are way above and beyond 99.9% of most skiers abilities and certainly mine. I don't have much interest in racing on a prepared course. I just wanna make turns in soft snow. I like to milk my hard-earned vert, tele allows this. I don't care much for chairlifts, lines or prepared snow. I'll take one lap of 2,000' of untracked to any "good" day at a resort. I think this adds to my draw of this peculiar turn.
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steve shea
climber
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Ok Berg. But if you get out to Jackson look me up and we'll make a few turns. I do still tele...
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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Jackson is on my short list. I'll get there some day, hopefully sooner rather than later!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Tele
alpine
corn snow
fall lines
park
etc...
Having tried everything, you don't know what you're missing until you've floated through powder on a snowboard.
Old troll, I know, but so true :)
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Remember Comici? I think it was Comici. You know, my route will follow a drop of water or something to that effect. Direct. That be a fall line. Fall line is good, fall line is fast!
I agree it is the fastest way down. I remember a reference from a friend that was teaching me to ski; it was like the water line you mention above. By hits I meant basically anything different from a smooth fall line: lip, chicane, berm, wave, stump, etc.. I wasn't necessarily talking about air(especially for me! especially b/c I didn't even think about it till you brought it up). I am not talking about doing tricks or park-ee style skiing skiing. I am just talking about skiing a face in a creative way that makes you say YeeHaw!! I know folks love the fall line and that is great. I know what it is for me and what makes my Haw equal my Yee is working the features. To me, it really opens up the potential number of lines on just about any face. The beauty of skiing..
Edit:
I here you crab. Although, I have never alpine skied so I can't make a comment via experience.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
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Steve ,you have my total respect.
I ski with Alpine racers now and then,inbounds ,on boiler plate,at places like Whiteface.On these
Yeah,they beat me down the mountain,but ,there is no waiting for me,to this day.
That said ,I do not race.
I relish in the climb,the transitions,the descent.
Could care less about piste,but ,ride it now and then.
Like your area up there,have skied Buck Mt.,Static Peak,turned back on Mt.Moran.I have even skied Slide Mt. in the Gros Ventre's,
The Dinwoody Glaciers,never been to the resort.
Glisse is for everyone that wants it.
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steve shea
climber
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Wilbeer, next time you are out here we'll go hiking. I know of some great skiing on Togwotee Pass with the best view of the Teton's. I once skied Buck on Fischer Europas and PINS!!! I thought I had one foot in the grave. Never again! Alpine gear from then on in the Tetons, on the big peaks at least.
When I finally moved back to the states from Chamonix, JH was the only hill that came close to the big sustained steep vertical in France. On some days you really need your sh#t in a pile to get down in style. Over 4K vertical to the parking lot and you are liable to start in a whiteout on sastrugi to windslab to pow to crud to sacrete by the time you bottom out. all on one run. Most of the mt is NOT groomed. Skiing sauvage as they say in France. Really good challenging conditions. Keeps you honest just like that eastern boiler plate. I grew up skiing Cannon mt in Franconia, NH. I know how it is. Funny out here what people think is ice is a nice packed powder day in the NE. Ice is when you can see the flowers down below. NE skiers know what I mean.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
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Very cool ,Steve,I will take you up on that .
Love the area,I mean how could you not.
Edit: I am not saying I had an easy time on those aspects,Those trips brought out the truest of grit that I had.Great experience.Actually really miss it.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Got me thinking of it all,the vid is not mine,we did not have snowmobiles,we did not summit,we hardly got any turns .
We got to the base of the real climb.
A snowboarder[not with us] had a bad time of it ,had a good size slough literally blast him into a BIG ROCK PILE,right in front of myself,Thom and Phred.
All three first responders ,we worked up the slope[400ft] and helped and accessed.
He was concussed and had broken his arm,maybe leg.
It took us and his buddy the rest of the day to get out.
We ended up doing the same thing as the folks in the video did at the end .
Other than that ,It was the same ...........LOL. Really.
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