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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:52pm PT
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don't have much to add to this dialectic, folks -- i think it's been hashed over pretty good. but i'd like to give a big bvb shout-out to all my homies who done posted to this thread!
oh, plus these:
The Abilene Paradox:
a social phenomenon wherein groups agree to pursue goals with which the individual members do not agree.
Groupthink:
a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action.
postcount+++
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 05:07pm PT
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How about the Anal Dichotomy;
that there are two kinds of people in the world, my kind of people and azzholes.
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 13, 2006 - 05:19pm PT
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There are THREE kinds of people on this planet - those who can count, and those who can't!
:)
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 13, 2006 - 05:27pm PT
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Horseplay VI 5.9 A3 (FA: Grossman/Harrington, 1984)
3 rurps
2 KB
25 LA
4 - 1/2"
6 ea. 5/8" to 1 1/4"
1 ea. 1 1/2" to 2 1/2"
2 ea. cams
10 heads
Jolly Roger VI 5.10 A5 (FA: Cole/Grossman, 1979)
(McNeely & Co. 10th? ascent)
10 rurps
20 KB
20 LA
3 ea. 1/2" and 5/8"
1 ea. 2" to 4"
6 ea. Leeper
many small wires
4 ea. cams
75 heads
hooks, numerous
The Real Nose VI 5.10 A4 (FA: Cole/Grossman, 1984)
3 beaks
15 rurps
25 KB
20 LA
4 ea. 1/2" and 5/8"
2 - 3/4"
3 ea. cams
hooks, all
100 heads
Turning Point ? (FA: Grossman, 1984)
Eyes only
Central 'nizer ? (FA: Grossman/Ladin, 1988)
Super-ultra-secret
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 05:48pm PT
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Well I guess we all know which of the three kinds of people Yo is. lol
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nvrws
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 07:18pm PT
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We need WB to chime in here. I think it would sound something like this, (paraphrased) I don't give a sh#t what people do to El Cap(insert any stone), they can blow it up if they want.
Mr. Grossman, you are not talking about ethics, you are talking about style. The two are very different. Did you stop to consider that maybe just maybe something had changed on P-7, or does the route only change by the few lower orders that would dare place a pin where none had been before. How high is that horse you rode in on?
I must admit, i do agree with you on issues of speed climbing and style. Seems that the competitive drive could cause some serious errors in judgement in regards to style. Perhaps Hans Florine could develop a way of crediting style on speed ascents. Something like 10 second time add ons for every non first ascent bolt clipped or pin used.. just a thought.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:08pm PT
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looks scary to me...and committing too.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:27pm PT
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Not many of us are as spiritually advanced as Werner. Our fragile eggshell minds require certain earthly beliefs to help maintain sanity in this current life on this wonderful planet.
Edit: I kept thinking that this wasn't necessary, but alas, maybe it'll help. They're close but not quite. Merrium-Webster OnLine.
Ethics - a set of moral principles, the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group (professional ethics), a guiding philosophy, a consciousness of moral importance (forge a conservation ethic).
Style - a distinctive manner or custom of behaving or conducting oneself, a particular manner or technique by which something is done, created, or performed (a unique style of horseback riding, the classical style of dance).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:47pm PT
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I heard Webster was a rap bolter.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
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Dictionaries are aid.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:53pm PT
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dab. i wrote my shite from memory. evergreen state college liberal arts degrees 4lyfe, bisshes.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:56pm PT
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Hey you people quit fuking around and figure this sh#t out, like 183 posts and WTF, guys on EL Cap straight-a-way are waiting.
Hahahaha
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:04pm PT
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Rimsolder, how bout using that Princeton schooling to add something of substance to this debate before Werner goes postal.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
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Werner can always take his 200 watt megaphone down to the meadow and tell them to toss their mallets and grow some nuts or he'll lower Lober with a taser.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:09pm PT
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mimi,
while i have given you a hard time i do agree that these are ethics, not style issues.
pounding pins on clean routes damages the rock. there is more significance to that than pulling on a bolt to get through a hard move.
but to stop cold turkey? is there not some sort of methadone treatment for this fix...and dont be tellin me to grow a set of balls. thats my line usually...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:14pm PT
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mimi, werner does not subscribe to the use of currency, and therefore he does not use stamps.
besides...steve made his point, and he made it well. he and i see eye-to-eye on the issue; others have their own views and will not be budged.
the only route i've done on el cap was the west face; we climbed it clean, free, and in a day. i don't own a hammer...except for the signed "collector's item" A5 hammer that a friend gave me. never been used.
i've never been interested in anything except clean, free climbing. this has undoubtably limited the range of experiences i've lived through in climbing, but on the other hand i've been doing what i enjoy. as i age, the fire of my passage continues to burn away the extraneous...i'm down to bouldering now, pure and simple, just bouldering, and have been in that state for over a decade now. the crucial passage in bernard amy's "the greatest climber in the world" involves a boulder problem, and provide my current blueprint for climbing.
for those who chose to do walls, i beleive style and ethics should be the primary consideration. but that's just me. and i'm obviously totally unqualified to say much more than that.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:23pm PT
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ragmeat,
go home
i am pretty sure that squeeling i here is a warning sign from your mama
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:34pm PT
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It would seem the discussion really has forked a few times into several intertwined topics:
 Ammon [the unwitting icon] and his lone perilous pin
Leaving the ground with a hammer on a route that's gone clean
Less skilled parties still hammering on a route that's gone clean
Speedclimbing - imperative vs. impact (or when ethics and style collide)
Ethics-based retreats - walking the talk (yes, even today they exist in both free and aid climbing)
Any of the above could almost be an actual climbing-related thread of it's own. And, again, I think Steve did himself a real disservice with his tone and verbage in his first post relative to engaging Ammon and others on the substance of his concerns and I'm glad to see that toned down. Like Duecey said - Ammon is the current point of the spear and I don't think you could find a better aid protagonist than him. His virtual and real spew, spray, commercialization, and general funk index isn't even on the radar compared to some of today's free climbing icons.
Trying to tackle the whole enchilada in one thread is a bit difficult, particularly given the two individuals involved. I personally completely ascribe to Steve's agenda and am also totally supportive of Ammon's climbing. We're all human here - we all both deliberately and mindlessly bauble once in awhile, we can all stand to look in the mirror now and then and check out what's currently staring back, and it's good for all of us to check in and touch base periodically (as Chris and Ammon did).
As an aside, I climb at a fairly retro trad crag where the ethic is still gear > pins > bolts as an absolute last resort. The last two [free] FA's I did there used pins (only) for several points of fixed pro over six pitches. Both routes were cleaned (no small job) and protected on lead. On our rock (medium and long) LA's and Bugs still have a venerated place as fixed pro and in a recent two year maintenance sweep of the crag it was clear that, on a percentage basis, the pins far outlasted almost all the bolts placed 1960's - 1990's. Beyond that they are easy to check and reset if necessary, though well-placed pins weld and don't loosen in our basalt.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
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i agree with what you write -- mostly. however, i've met and hung with steve on many occasions going back to tucson in '85 and to suggest he was being inflammatory or an attack dog in his initial post is just way off base. he was trying to provoke a dialectic on a truly important issue that the climbing world would prefer to ignore. personally, he is as laid back as anyone gets. it's like someone pointed out about 1,000 posts upstream: you cannot evaluate people based on internet posts. get a f*#king clue, gomer.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:00pm PT
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As Steve himself would and did say, I was simply commenting on [the outcome of] his actions (postings) - not judging the man himself. I have nothing but respect for Steve and am fully on board with his clean agenda and its importance to the future of climbing. But, in person or on the internet, words are what they are and I'm not remotely alone in believing he could have found a better way to "provoke a dialectic" with Ammon and to raise a flag on the issue.
[Edit: I personally appreciate and value folks who's online and in-person personnas are in-sync (when I actually run across them) and work to keep mine that way.]
P.S. TIG, leash and paper your pup, he's pissing on the carpet again...
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