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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 04:31pm PT
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Twisted Crank: "He's comparing himself to Batso?"
No, he's not comparing himself to Batso. Others have compared WOS to the Dawn Wall and he is saying that Steve Grossman is no Royal Robbins.
Ironically enough, I was reading Royal Robbins' review of Harding's Downward Bound in The Games Climbers Play. This line. on the Dawn Wall, struck a chord. Royal Robbins made the second ascent with intent of chopping the route.
"Harding and Caldwell showed remarkable tenacity and toughness, more then has been shown by most climbers and by probably all of their detractors and critics. It was in fact a formidable effort."
The same could be said of Richard and Mark. There! Now the comparison has been made, but by me, not Richard.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 04:35pm PT
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"It would seem to me that answering the (rather arbitrary) questions about the 100' pitch and "consensus" rating gives a little more background on the Riverside Quarry to people who are not familiar with it."
Again, what would answering these questions prove or disprove about WOS? The Riverside Quarry is an interesting topic but would not advance the discussion of WOS.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:02pm PT
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Cool, there we have it. I'll do the Jolly Roger, and Steve can do WoS. Deal?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:12pm PT
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Doode, you need to reevaluate your motivations for posting.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:21pm PT
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Pathetic. There is no honor here. I'm done. Reasonable people have learned the truth. The rest are unreachable.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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Twisted Crank's deleted posts:
Re: WoS / PTPP, part XXVI (continued from XXV ) Dec 31, 2007, 01:43pm PST
Author:
TwistedCrank
climber
From: Ideeho
Your interpretive skills are lacking Crinklecut.
Comparing WoS to the Jolly Roger is like comparing a velvet Elvis to a van Gogh.
Or not.
Re: WoS / PTPP, part XXVI (continued from XXV ) Dec 31, 2007, 02:07pm PST
Author:
TwistedCrank
climber
From: Ideeho
Doode. You need to reevaluate your motivations for climbing at all.
Re: WoS / PTPP, part XXVI (continued from XXV ) Dec 31, 2007, 02:17pm PST
Author:
TwistedCrank
climber
From: Ideeho
To mess with chumps and connect with friends. Reevaluation complete.
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coward
Trad climber
Boulder, Wyoming
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:53pm PT
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I honestly think that this thread is the most amazing thread in the history of this great site. Reading most of the posts has consumed a lot of my time (which in my case isn't too valuable anyway) but I find the whole thing fascinating. I have nothing to do with the whole affair, but I love any spirited discussion of climbing ethics. A few things I have to say:
1. From what I've read, I respect Richard and Mark tremendously - they're humble, articulate, and have left no shred of doubt in my mind as to the integrity and truth of their story. The posts they've left are thoughtful, intelligent always, and passionate.
2. Their detractors seem clumsy, illogical, spiteful and mean. Steve, sack up buddy or sit down, old fart. I don't care how hard you've climbed, you get no respect from me. You sound like a weasel on this forum. As have Mimi, Deuce4, and others at various times. You all sound like a bunch of jackasses - jealous, grudging, petty little people. Act your age and show some humility and compassion - admit you're wrong. How hard is that? Or if you can't do that, then give the route a whirl and honor your words. And don't say that the route is somehow "beneath" you by not satisfying your aesthetic standards. What bullsh#t.
3. Those who sh#t on the ropes are, in no uncertain terms, cowards. Your shame is your burden to bear. I can understand being young and subject to the mob mentality. So you made a mistake. How hard is it to apologize and cut your losses? Come clean and 'fess up. We all want to know who you are, cowards.
4. Many people have posted things like, "can we stop beating this dead horse yet?"
If you don't like the discourse, then simply don't keep coming back to the thread that annoyes you so much. All who have posted as such exhibit...idiot hypocracy.
5. Wings of Steel is a real intrigue. No one has ever said that it's the best route on the Captain. But no one can deny its historical significance now...What a story! Mark and Richard...39 days on the wall = AWESOME!! What a trip.
6. The idea that you need pay your dues in small increments is lame. Well, it is good AND bad but need not be an absolute. The Appalachian Mountain Club used to make Gunks climbers show certifiable credentials to lead, say, a climb of 5.7 rating. Then the Vulgarians shattered the caste system by thumbing their noses at the establishment. Yosemite climbers have done the same, generation after generation. This doesn't mean that respect for elders has gone out the window, but rather, in climbing there are few rules that are well-defined. Of course, "leave the rock as you left it," but that applies only to a certain degree on high-calibre aid climbs. If Mark and Richard climbed WoS before the Valley hierarchy accepted it, I say...that's brave and BRAVO! You guys didn't have to answer to anyone (and you know it, of course). I respect boldness...but more than that, I respect openness, honesty and good will. Mark and Richard have all of the above in spades.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dec 31, 2007 - 06:40pm PT
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"Coward" (the one with the assigned supertaco poster name, not any generic usage implied),
Please note that I think there has been a meeting of the minds between Deuce4 and madbolter1 and msmith, and at this point probably doesn't deserve any additional condemnation from your last post.
But it's a long thread, understandable if you missed a post or two. I know I'm trying skip certain posts. :)
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 31, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
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Lois, it's been said very well before, "They climbed it to the best of their ability." That's the meat of the matter, their ability level at the time and the unfortunate results.
You submen are really something. You need to check out the snake oil they're selling too. And read their stupid book for crying out loud!! Their religious pilgrimage was like 40 days in the desert for them, not the climbing, or how well it was done. Sheer manifest destiny, everything goes. If you're good with that kind of weak sauce, see ya later.
As several qualified climbers have already stated, the WOS is a POS because of how it was done and where it is. Why would anyone want to get on that pile other than perhaps mere curiosity at best or to prove it's manufactured and then erase it for good? What a laugher comparing it to JR. And comparing anything these guys did to anything Harding did is preposterous.
Plus, from what's been reported, the route has for all practical purposes seen a subsequent ascent albeit not in one push. With visible bashed placements, water erosion, and time, not seeing drilled holes on the first two pitches is inconclusive combined with the fact that holes exist above. Would it help if I scanned pages from their book when Richard discusses the drilling activity?
Once again, because of what is provided in their little book, the RQ is very important with regard to their overall competence and preparation for a new wall route. The only aid route of length that one of them did prior to WOS was the Column. Even with Richard's painful essay above, their prior aid climbing experience is suspect and further exacerbated by the incredible amount and types of gear they brought up. Taking 39 days to do a 13-pitch route that then bailed onto an established line with 8 pitches to Thanksgiving is just crazy. Any of you praising this ridiculous amount of time as some awesome feat is missing a few.
For such master aidmen, they took 21 days on the Sea after WOS! That's about one pitch per day! They claim they didn't drill on the Sea (despite all of the drill marks they claim they saw) due to being watched so closely from the ground. I guess that's why it took them so long. It's obvious that anyone with wall climbing experience and who's read their book and jibberish on here and their site, and who was there or talked to any witnesses who were there at the time and watched them in action, heard the tapping, and have seen the drill marks and bashed placements, smells a rat. Let's not discount that they drilled all over their other two POS routes. That's how they climb. They don't give a crap about how they get to the top. But obviously, that's okay to many of you. What heroes!
graniteclimber, what is your name?
Oh, and by the way. Dick is a common nickname for Richard. Sorry you have such a one-track mind to assume it was a male body part reference. Sheesh!
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coward
Trad climber
Boulder, Wyoming
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Dec 31, 2007 - 06:58pm PT
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Mimi - you're an expert aid climber, aren't ya? Why don't you get on up there and try the route? Instead of running your mouth off. I'm no one's subman (I don't know what the term refers to) but I choose to make a call as I see it. You sound like someone who knows their way around the valley - I would think you would make more of an effort to learn about the route (say, first hand!) before condemning it.
And your blip about taking "too long" on a route...what does that prove? That they didn't have their Yosemite speed systems perfected before heading up the Big Stone? Maybe they should have waited until the late '90s to try it so they could take advice from Dean Potter first!
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:08pm PT
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I can’t help being humored by Steve’s, “First you threaten me with legal action and now a soloing duel to the Death!!” Classic.
“And read their stupid book for crying out loud!! Their religious pilgrimage was like 40 days in the desert for them, not the climbing, or how well it was done.”
Wings of Steel, the book, is indeed an inspiring read for those who have a Judeo-Christian view of spirituality. I wholeheartedly concur with Mimi’s “read” recommendation, along with the caveat that it’s not a book about climbing. Richard, is the book long enough out of print that is it possible to post the entire book with art work on-line?
Hey, I’m getting ready to head off to a new year’s party. I think A 1000 Posts To Horse Chute has summited both figuratively and literally, and I’m ready to leave WoS debate to 2007. My appreciation to all who posted in good faith. When does Beacon open? Safe climbing in 2008.
--Mark
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:22pm PT
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As I said before I think the proof of the "unfortunate results" lies with the accusers. The accusers have been proved wrong time and again. If you want anybody to take you seriously it's time to offer some proof. The burden of proof is on you.
I guess I've become a submen because of all the credible evidence I've heard support Richard and Mark's account. Not the mob that attacked them.
Harding would be the first guy to say "Richard and Mark did a badass route, it's beyond anything I've ever done." But then again Batso didn't have the fragile ego others are displaying, and was a supportive, caring guy.
Please scan the pages about drilling.
Or how about this quote from the book:
"You don't like to drill the rock, because the whole idea in climbing is to accept the situation that the rock presents naturally and to adapt to it.
This ethic to use only natural features, is embraced by the climbing community and serves to slow the progress of rock destruction. Becuase the rock is a limited resource, climbers strive to preserve the climbs in as pristine a state as possible. Anybody can grab a drill and plant bolts and rivets all the way up a wall, ignoring the natural features that take skill and risk to use." -Richard Jensen
I've read time and time again how it is badass to come to the Valley and jump on a tough El Cap route as your first big wall route. For a couple guys to come and put up an FA, that sure sounds badass, with little experience is more significant than if they had a bunch of experience.
Climbing faster is better than climbing slower, but so what. On an FA it's the quality of the climbing that's important.
"They don't give a crap about how they get to the top." Complete bullsh#t. Prove it. I could make up all kinds of lies about you and your motivation, but that's quite weak.
So Mimi please scan the pages from the book where he discusses their drilling activity. Back up your claims with something, anything.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:27pm PT
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The book was a great read, and possibly the best explanation I've ever read of climbing for the layman.
I appreciate, but don't subscribe to, the Judeo-Christian view of spirituality and still found the book an inspiring read.
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Jesus!
Trad climber
Tulsa
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:29pm PT
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Mimi is hopeless. Thinking of her conjures images of clowns in horror films.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:57pm PT
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Mark, Beacon is open until Feb 1st - heading out tomorrow to do a run up the corner. It will reopen as soon as the Peregrines fledge - typically in the second half of June or early July; July 15th at the latest. Come on out sometime...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 31, 2007 - 08:08pm PT
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Munge-
I wouldn't say there was necessarily a "meeting of the minds", yet I don't think there is anything to gain by further debating the past. 1982 was "before my time" as a valley local, but I showed up a few years later, and the point I was trying to make in these discussions was more about trying to create a picture of the prevailing attitude and ethic of the day(and no, the Wall of the Early Morning Light was not considered the standard). It was a time where drilling an additional bolt on an established route, for example, would have resulted in alienation from the climbing community, and you'd have a hard time ever finding another climbing partner in the valley.
That said, I wish the WOS team no harm and certainly don't see anything positive in continuing to debate them. I'm sure it's a hard route, but not something that personally appeals to me, neither the line nor the style. Basically, in my opinion, the route required a lot more drilled placements than what was generally going up at the time, and the technique of creating "humanly indiscernable enhancements" as an acceptable ethic irked many. But perhaps the technique of creating enhancements as long as another human can't discern them will become acceptable in the future, and the slab could be the future for a slew of new routes in similar style. To me, it seems like cheating both the stone and Mother Nature (but so did top-down route establishment), and a pain-in-the-arse for subsequent ascents, but Time Will Tell.
The facts are this: Mark and Richard did their best, and got their ropes shat on. A sad state of affairs for all involved. But if you're not having fun no matter what people "think", then what's the point? Then again, perhaps all this reflects the merits (or lack thereof) of peer pressure in the climbing community.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2007 - 08:20pm PT
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Just food for thought ......
Well you know that everything has an opposite? No?
What we might be forgetting here or missing in our understanding of our mundane world is:
1) We will always have a detractor. There must be one! That is the law of the Universe.
2) All of us have every right to do wrong along with doing right. This is our independent free will.
Jensen quote: "I'm still waiting... waiting for a shred of honor here." unquote.
Steve has no obligation to honor. He can remain a detractor as long as he wants to. This is his free will, no matter what anyone thinks. Just as it was your freedom to go do what you wanted to do on El Cap, regardless of your detractors wishes at that time. "Free will again"
Where's his honor? For his independent free will to express his passion?
You're not going to squeeze anything out of some people no matter what, even with your challenge to both of you do a route each, Steve WOS, you Jolly Roger?
It's just the way it is in life.
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Jesus!
Trad climber
Tulsa
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Dec 31, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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Valley Christians are immortal. The rest of you must go to hell.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 31, 2007 - 08:41pm PT
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Whether or not Steve G chooses to pick up the glove, I think it would be a cool thing if you soloed Jolly Roger, MB-1. Mind you, you'll still have the same antagonists, and won't switch that many minds, but it is a worthy, symmetrical, climbing goal! All things (esp, family, etc) allowing.
Good luck!
Happy new year to all!
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 31, 2007 - 09:46pm PT
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The type of rock and angle determines how the hooking will go.
With such difficult hooking is it not expected the climbers will take Sunday off to pray.
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