Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
|
Who hired the snipers and killed the people is to be investigated, AND the current Ukrainian government resists that investigation. Why would they?
Poland officials, a well-known Russia haters, are curiously quiet. Is it because the Ukrainian Nazis in power are positioning themselves as Stepan Bandera's OUN reincarnation - responsible for 70.000 Polish civilians deaths in 1943?
|
|
Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
|
The PEOPLE of Ukraine decided that they would rather be involved with the EU, rather than Russia. The elected leader of Ukraine DESERTED THE COUNTRY, after ordering the military to fire on his own people, and after emptying the treasury of the country into his own pockets.
SOME of the people of Ukraine, via mob demonstrations, overthrew their elected president. The elected president of Ukraine had to take refuge from a violent mob, but never stepped down. It wasn't pretty for either side. Kyiv is nearer to the western leaning West, so the eastern leaning East were less able to join their mob in opposing the western mob.
I liken this to the South, Texas and the Tea Party rising up and overthrowing our president and installing there own. How would that feel? Would you recognize them?
Kievan Rus' is the origin of Russian culture, so in the minds of most Russians (including Russian Ukrainians), Kyiv is Russian, and Ukraine itself is hard to differentiate or recognize as separate from Mother Russia.
Occasionally I agree with Bluey, and this is one of those occasions. The West's scheme blew up and it is a true crisis now.
|
|
vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
|
Russia is corrupt all right. But Ukrainian corruption was out of control under the last president from what I hear. That was one feed to the protests, but Nazis rode the wave.
Nazis suffer almost no causalities from the bullets, curiously, even if they were the most aggressive on rallies. According to their explanations, they simply were not there when the main shooting happened. How convenient.
Peaceful protests, Ukrainian style:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
How long you think it would take an average US cop to reach for a gun when treated like that? Never mind, riot police had no firearms - only rubber bullets. So it lasted for 3 f-in months and was going nowhere, until the Right Sector decided to step up violence a bit. Blood always works.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
|
SOME of the people of Ukraine, via mob demonstrations, overthrew their elected president. The elected president of Ukraine had to take refuge from a violent mob, but never stepped down. It wasn't pretty for either side. Kyiv is nearer to the western leaning West, so the eastern leaning East were less able to join their mob in opposing the western mob.
I liken this to the South, Texas and the Tea Party rising up and overthrowing our president and installing there own. How would that feel? Would you recognize them?
Kievan Rus' is the origin of Russian culture, so in the minds of most Russians (including Russian Ukrainians), Kyiv is Russian, and Ukraine itself is hard to differentiate or recognize as separate from Mother Russia.
Occasionally I agree with Bluey, and this is one of those occasions. The West's scheme blew up and it is a true crisis now.
Thanks, Jesse. I like to think that I stand on the side of truth and fact. Even when it doesn't feel so nice.
You're a bold man for siding with me on something...but I appreciate your honesty, and willingness to openly state it. Cheers, bro!
Scott, what the hell are you talking about? I totally agree with Vlani. Why are you apologizing for me? WTF?
|
|
vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 06:26pm PT
|
Yes I've missed that too.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
|
Who hired the snipers and killed the people is to be investigated, AND the current Ukrainian government resists that investigation. Why would they?
Because their country is being invaded by a foreign power? Perhaps they have a more important thing to address RIGHT NOW.
So, by what right does Russia invade another country? What is the legal basis for that? Setting up a false illegal election?
There must be some Americans living in Ukraine. Can we ask them if they want to join the US, then annex Ukraine if they say yes?
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
|
"I'd like to join Supertopo"
"You seem pretty tight with climber.org, but we can talk"
(climber.org initiates a denial of service attack)
AHA! Look at what a dumsh*t job Supertopo did!
You guys seem to have forgotten the concept of *freedom*
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
|
I liken this to the South, Texas and the Tea Party rising up and overthrowing our president and installing there own. How would that feel? Would you recognize them?
You mean before, or after, they invited the Russians to come in and assume control of the country?
As in the entire history of the world, if an entity successfully overthrew the gov't, and established a new one that maintained it's control, it WOULD be the new gov't.
The neocon colonialists for a long time didn't recognize Castro's gov't. They all do now.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
|
Russia is corrupt all right. But Ukrainian corruption was out of control under the last president from what I hear. That was one feed to the protests, but Nazis rode the wave.
Nazis suffer almost no causalities from the bullets, curiously, even if they were the most aggressive on rallies. According to their explanations, they simply were not there when the main shooting happened. How convenient.
Peaceful protests, Ukrainian style:
Nazi??????
How are the Germans involved. I'm positive that no Germans are involved.
The battle of Stalingrad is long since over.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 06:53pm PT
|
vlani, I have no idea who you are but when somebody speaks the truth, as I see it, it has a certain 'ring' to it.
I am a staunch anti-Communist. As noted here;
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/649636/Communists-OT
Commies come in all flavors. Leninists, Marxists, Stalinists, Maoists, etc...
They all have one thing in common. Oppression and death for the betterment of the "State", all the while claiming to bring the "people together".
If you ignore all the facts that lead up to Ukraines's revolt, you are missing the whole picture. You are misguided. It's like walking into a street-fight without seeing who started it, while rooting for the guy getting his ass kicked. Maybe the sorry son of a bitch started the fight and got some righteous justice imposed! Somebody fought back.
People are entitled to opinions, but please try to have some actual facts to back them up.
Stop using emotions, look at facts before you pass judgement.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
|
You mean before, or after, they invited the Russians to come in and assume control of the country?
As in the entire history of the world, if an entity successfully overthrew the gov't, and established a new one that maintained it's control, it WOULD be the new gov't.
The neocon colonialists for a long time didn't recognize Castro's gov't. They all do now.
Your ignorance of the issues are telling.
Nazi??????
How are the Germans involved. I'm positive that no Germans are involved.
The battle of Stalingrad is long since over.
More evidence of your ignorance of what has happened. No, it's not the late 30's anymore, but the fascists are coming back to Eastern Europe. Sometimes they even wear Islamic garb.
The Russians are dealing with a bunch of bullsh#t. They want it stopped in it's tracks. And they will stop it, they have to!
EDIT: It's pretty silly and box-sighted to try to encapsulate everybody into a certain 'ism'. It's better to look people in the eye and understand them, and calculate their intentions. Are they good or bad? Is that in our best national interest? What are the long-term repercussions for us?
|
|
vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
|
Not all bandits are commies. Communism is a very specific flavor of bad guys, long extinct in Russia and Ukraine. It is a big mistake to assume that Russians are inherently commies. People of Russia where used by commies as a merely resource in achieving their major goal, the world power it was. As a result Russia does nor exist any more in it's pre-Bolshevik borders, loosing about half of it's territory. People of Russia suffered the most form the communist. Do not forget that.
People who call themselves communists in Russia are more of a loners of the 'good ol' times' when grass was greener and life was sweeter. Their average age is 65 or 70.
Ukraine was governed by a gang. Democratically elected. The previous government before the gang come as a result of previous revolt, and was populist, incompetent and corrupt. Then they elected gangsters. Now fascists control the government, as a result of another popular revolt. That is about how it is in Ukraine. And that fascist government is placed in a position of helpless looser begging for help, by Mr.Putin. The better the chance that they loose the next election - in May that is, and will never be legit.
I have difficulty judging Putin's actions. He is clearly a suppressor of democracy in Russia, he has built the state founded on corruption. But I do not have much believe in people of Russia. They would free-elect a real monster in a blink.
Putin's actions in Crimea may be not more justified then Sarajevo bombing and Crimea referendum may be not more legal then Kosovo and South Sudan referendums. But calling it illegal is a hypocrisy. This country was founded illegally, after all. It would be interesting to know which country has a constitutional formula allowing alienation of a territory?
People of Crimea had spoken, that is settled. Even Kiev does not doubt the Crimea people will, so obvious it is. EU refused to send observers to that referendum and now they complain that it was not properly observed, looking totally stupid. Illegal is the only argument and it is funny. Of cause it is up to EU and US and Putin to pick which illegal government to favor - Kiev or Crimea's. Putin picked Crimea's to his convenience, what a surprise.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
|
Bluey you had me almost, in some funny way, agreeing with you up to a point. But then you sidetrack yourself. You spew out your right-wing crap.
I have been following this issue for a while, though it is not top of my list. But there have been some sensible comments on this thread.
Unfortunately Bluering, yours are colored by ignorance and pig-headedness. Your hatred of anything that to you smacks of liberalism makes you a bit perverse, IMO. I do not think that liberalism is really the main issue about the Ukraine. I could be wrong.
Now please Bluey, stay off the altar. Yeah, I was a (darn good) altar boy myself, in fifth grade beating out the seventh and eight graders to weddings over funerals (good money, the groom would give you a twenty and so would the bride's father - until Father Cosgrave caught me drinking sacramental wine).
But unlike you Bluering, it seems to appear (at least to me), when I was up on the altar, I did not think I was some righteous god, all knowing like you seem to. I let the priests think that.
Don't take it bad fellow, I am still a bit wondering what the heck is going on, having read a number of different views on the Ukraine. Never been there though. Prague anybody? Been there (but not in 1968).
Though I have my thoughts. Vlani, Healy, Coz and Ken M. have some of the more insightful posts, it seems. For better or for worse (til death do us part).
|
|
Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
|
Right or wrong, its obvious how the west was able to topple the elected president. It's also obvious why the south and east (culturally Russian) are pushing back and seeking protection from Russia. The "new" Ukrainian government outlawed the Russian language! Try to tell Granny she'll have to learn a new language!
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
|
TMJessee
I would think most of us would know the demographics. If we are following it correctly.
What is Crimea, what is its history?
So, the US , in a land grab takes California. Some years later the state has become more Hispanic, like it was, oh, some 150 or so years ago (pre-1840ish).
A couple of hundred years, give or take, ago, Russia takes the Ukraine and Crimea, in a land grab, as is want of the notions at the time.
This is human history, you know that as well, if not better, than I do.
So the status quo remains, and the annexation is a fait accompli. Russia flooded the Crimea with Russian people.
In our Manifest Destiny, we did the same (remember my folks have been here since 1640, and why do you think there is Cherokee heritage - 1/16th - in me.) Manifest Destiny. What a convenient term.
But we are not talking about the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th centuries. Those mindsets of colonization should be gone - yeah my dad's dad was a Rough Rider up San Juan Hill with Teddy, a land grab for Puerto Rico, Cuba, Philippines, Guam etc etc - but to continue from my digression, those mindsets should be gone by now.
Alas they are not. My point? Crimea was stripped of its native people by Stalin (and before) and the Russians flooded in. Sounds familiar?
I do not like the makeup of the new Ukrainian government, but I do not like Putin as well, nor obama, Merkel or the whole lot. Anyway, as I see it in my simple mind, it will be corporatocracy that wins the day.
I believe that there is more to this whole affair. Yeah, firstly what do I know and secondly, am I stating the obvious?
Money wins and people lose. Neo-con, neo-lib, despots… I want to be one, sigh. I need a yacht and a jet, and full-time carers for Jennie. I want to climb.
|
|
Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2014 - 12:03am PT
|
I do not like the makeup of the new Ukrainian government, but I do not like Putin as well, nor obama, Merkel or the whole lot. Anyway, as I see it in my simple mind, it will be corporatocracy that wins the day.
We're on the same page. It's an ugly struggle of power. I have very little stake in how it turns out, except I wish for minimal expense to the USA over this shifting of borders way over there (eleven time zones from PDT), and I hope peace wins.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2014 - 12:07am PT
|
See if I have this straight.
Our Guy in Ukraine is in power due to the overthrow of a democratically elected president, and we're on record as standing in opposition to the result of a voter-approved referendum in Crimea.
|
|
Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2014 - 12:12am PT
|
Chaz, let's watch who and how your precise statement of the situation is twisted some other way. I don't necessarily like it, but that doesn't make it untrue.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2014 - 12:18am PT
|
I can't see where we're in support of democracy at any point there.
Looks like we don't do democracy anymore, especially to those in other countries.
|
|
vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2014 - 12:23am PT
|
Crimea was stripped of its native people by Stalin (and before) and the Russians flooded in. Calling that oversimplifying is understatement of the year.
Crimea along with all that strip of land along the Black Sea which is claimed by Ukraine now days was stripped of Crimean Tatars in late 1700-s, after 200 years of the glorious Crimea Khanate burning Russian cities and robbing and enslaving Russians. Crimean Tatars were extremely hostile and were treated respectively. That little bit of them left in Crimea was just a tiny fraction, who were not killed in the war or not fled to Turkey.
The area was repopulated in 1800-s, only partially by Russians but also by Jews, even Armenians. Tatars were a minority at the time Stalin has deported them.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!