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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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How is the ethics of some campground development on the other side of the continent relevant to this incident and thread? Stop railroading the conversation and let's have us a proper lynching...oh crap, someone cut the tree down...dang it..
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
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Historically, scenically, and culturally there may be differences between the tree which is the subject of this thread and the AAC trees being cut down currently, but ecologically there is little, if any, difference.
swing and a miss.
even if "intrinsic value" and "ecological value" really were synonyms.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
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I believe they've started
Which is the only reason I'm stating my opinion (and unfortunately giving them attention).
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
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Habitat destruction is not a first world problem.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Oct 18, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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Habitat destruction is not a first world problem.
Perhaps not but, whining about it (unknown facts) endlessly on the web is...
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
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No, dipsh#t, that is a first world reaction.
Rest assured, the facts are known... just not disclosed here.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Oct 18, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
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Whine on
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
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fuk off
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
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Those aren't the "problem" Kos.
Habitat/natural resource destruction is the problem, and it ain't limited to first world.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 18, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
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Prometheus (aka WPN-114) was the oldest known non-clonal organism, a Great Basin Bristlecone Pine (Pinus longaeva) tree growing near the tree line on Wheeler Peak in eastern Nevada, United States. The tree, which was at least 4862 years old and possibly more than 5000, was cut down in 1964 by a graduate student and United States Forest Service personnel for research purposes.[1] The people involved did not know of its world-record age before the cutting (see below), but the circumstances and decision-making process remain controversial; not all the facts are agreed upon by all involved.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
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Equally appalling, IMO.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 18, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
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Climbing without sponsors is still alot of fun.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Oct 18, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
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Historically, scenically, and culturally there may be differences between the tree which is the subject of this thread and the AAC trees being cut down currently, but ecologically there is little, if any, difference.
It's the process that matters. The AAC campground is not going to cause a backlash against climbers. The campground has been discussed for years and properly vetted by the local community that will be impacted. On the other hand, climbers can collectively look bad when someone unilaterally takes it upon himself to do something stupid--as we often get painted by the same broad-brush.
This in turn can lead to repercussions that will affect us all. In the late 80's a tree was cut down in the Gunks because it was in the way of a new, hard climb, and that action was a contributing factor in the permanent closure of SkyTop to all climbers.
Curt
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Oct 18, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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klk, when saying the tree lacks intrinsic historical, scenic, or cultural value, I mean absent humans those values wouldn't exist. That leaves just ecological value, as an intrinsic value.
And mechrist, destruction of a specimen is not synonymous with destruction of habitat. Another of this species or of another species will take this specimens place in time.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
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And mechrist, destruction of a specimen is not synonymous with destruction of habitat.
In terms of microhabitats in a desert of granite, they are indeed the same.
Another of this species or of another species will take this specimens place in time.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
But it will be at least 1,000 years before a tree that size occupies that space... providing the same amount of litter, food, shade, interception, etc. But hey, I'm sure it was a rad photo... and I'm sure they appreciate you trying to explain away the impacts of their actions.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Oct 18, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
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I'm not explaining away the impacts. If an ancient tree was cut down for a photo shoot of a climb it's much more than a just little inappropriate and there may well be several different kinds of impacts over time, social and ecological.
But the sky is not falling.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
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I don't recall ever mentioning anything about the sky. And if I thought it were falling, I'm sure I'd have something to say about it.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 18, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
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Jim, as you are a past president of the American Alpine Club, it's ironic to note in this thread that hundreds of trees are being cut down right now for the new AAC campground being built at the Gunks.
I guess it's ok for some people to cut down trees for climbing. Where trees are plentiful and quick growing, such as around the Gunks, you bet.
I am of course presuming they are preserving any old growth trees at the Gunks and some number of middle aged trees. Also, presumably, the plans have been approved by a licensed forester.
Sounds to me as if a few people on this forum have no idea how long it takes to grow a Juniper (or even a branch) to that size.
I'm no expert on which species this tree was but for comparison consider the Juniperus occidentalis (Western Juniper and Sierra Juniper)
California and westernmost Nevada, south of 40° 30' N latitude in the Sierra Nevada and San Bernardino Mountains. A medium-sized tree 12–26 m tall with a stout trunk up to 3 m diameter.
Juniperus occidentalis usually occurs on dry, rocky sites where there is less competition from larger species like Ponderosa Pine and Coast Douglas-fir.
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The Bennett Juniper in the Stanislaus National Forest of California is considered the oldest and largest example at possibly 3000 years old, with a height of 26 m and a diameter of 3.88 m.[1] For pics see:
http://www.savetheredwoods.org/what-we-do/protect/BennettJuniper.php
Note the "smaller" junipers in the background.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_occidentalis
This tree could easily have been 1000 years old.
no big deal.
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