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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 26, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
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Bacher's climbs have stood the test of time in that they get repeated. A 12c route (moderate by today's standards, esp in Boudler) that doesn't see a second ascent in 25 years is museum piece.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
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I guess you could repaint a picaso too,, but that wont be the same or worth a damm either.
This is the crux of the argument. The FA isn't an artist, they equip the rock to be climbed. Pure cracks need no bolts, that is a given. But to me, and a growing concensus of 'this generation' (Pinklebear?), the route needs to be at a standard for that area and that community. Look at the rest of the routes at this canyon, every one I looked at is a sport climb. One obvious line held hostage by some murky FA history is a sore thumb. Want bold? .... go to Eldo.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
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Put in about 20 bolts per pitch and i can DAWG my way up that gorgeous pathway! Where does it all end?
You can dawg, or aid your way up the nose, and many do. What is your point?
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
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News flash, twenty years ago climbers were warming up on 12.c as well. Not nearly as many as now yes, but the real talents of today are climbing three NUMBER grades beyond the level of this route.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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DMT, yes inevitable, and we will all be the poorer for it. Climbing is well on its way to becoming a typical "sport" where 99% of the masses will engage in a safe, highly dumbed-down version of the activity and worship a commercially supported 1% who will be hero/fan worshiped. It's a sea-change from when climbing was 'unsafe' and you had to had to quickly develop a minimal skill set and competence or quickly exit stage left.
In short, it's a clip-up world ahead with rock being consumed it at an aggressive rate to feed as can be clearly evidenced in the recent [d]evolution of BC and many other places around the country.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
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It did not seem that scary to us ... From the last piece of aid gear you bailed off of? Dude - stfu.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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DMT: This sport is also like rock and roll.... innovation belongs to youth.
Sure, if you consider a rack of 14 quickdraws innovative.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
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What are Lowe balls? Is that when ur balls drop & u can become a hard man & use them for protection? Just trying to keep up here.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
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In short, it's a clip-up world ahead with rock being consumed it at an aggressive rate to feed as can be clearly evidenced in the recent [d]evolution of BC and many other places around the country.
Absolute BS, more climbers are tradding at a higher level than ever before. Men, women, and children. In fact, bouldering and trad are quickest growing areas of the sport.
I know it doesn't fit into your black and white 'ethics' of 1975, but more is getting done and at a higher and bolder level than any other time in history.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
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In short, it's a clip-up world ahead with rock being consumed it at an aggressive rate to feed as can be clearly evidenced in the recent [d]evolution of BC and many other places around the country.
Nah, you're just freaking out because you believe what random dudes write on the Internet who don't have anything better to do and either make up sh#t or slant what's happened so much that it's the same thing.
Classic routes in Boulder Canyon are not getting retro-bolted, and there is no movement to retro-bolt them. Who knows what will happen in the future, but that's not happening now. Perhaps there is odd exception (Archangel could be one, but doesn't sound like it so far), but they are very much just that. I can think of one semi-famous route that was retro-bolted with the permission of the FA (Hot Flyer); world didn't come to an end, and I don't think many people think that routes protected with fixed bashies (original Hot Flyer) are or should be climbing's future.
It sounds like there was a secret top-roping gang that got mad when some guys put in bolts on their favorite moderate top ropes (probably without knowledge of them) some years ago, but that's kind of an outlier.
Edit--I thought the same thing that JLP wrote in response to Steve S's seeming irreconcilable comments that (1) route didn't seem that scary, and (2) he couldn't do it and added a piton (to a route he thought had been freed) to safely retreat! But I'm not here to bust anyone's balls.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Jul 25, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
I find myself intrigued by the way people post comments that are directly aimed at one person or another that I doubt very much would be said face to face.
I call it "keyboard muscles".
Actually I think Bob and I would be saying the same thing unfortunately the tone and smirking of how it is said is lost in these forums.
There is also an extreme difference in how west coast, east coast and southerns express themselves. The jocularity and ribbing between climber and skiers generally seems lost in translation to some western folk.
I have to be careful of what I say to my California friends who tend to be a little more PC then my friends in NYC or New Orleans.
shrug/
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
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Ill give you a personal account here Patrick. I did many of Bill Todds routes from bitd. He was known for BOLDNESS and that might be putting it mildly. There was ONE route of his i hadnt done which was ALWAYS on my mind. Tapestry at Sugar loaf. But because of the death defying amount of climbing to get to THE first bolt, i had only touched the bottom 20 moves then the sackage would fail me. BUT it remained a reminder and nemesis in which i compared the runouts on my own routes - so that aided me in doing my routes by just thinking on it.
Then, it got retrobolted over by TWO different routes turning it into a "trade" route of the area. The dream the nemesis and the aid it gave me all ended then. And it was sad, as if my own psyche had been torn. If anything it was the Tahoe greater regions Bachar/Yerian and its long gone..
I get where you are coming from. The easy response would be 'then don't clip the bolts', but I get why the magic is gone with the steel there. However, more and more people are climbing and there is less and less new lines for people. How many people did this route before the bolts? a handfull. Now, as you say, a handful every day. I used to have a two lane road in front of my house, now it is a freeway. More people have more places to go.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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As far as rock goes, as soon as you sink one bolt, you may as well sew it up.
Pretty lame point of view, and sad to think some folks actually think this is a valid stance.
"Tastes change over time but its the active climbers who decide, not the graybeards."
Perhaps, but it's also the older generation who needs to teach values to the young (unless you want to live in a world full of disrespect).
Slowly we're discovering the history of the route, and we're also finding out more about the bolter. And I still feel he blew it. I obviously can't change the action taken, but perhaps others will see another course before repeating the same mistake.
Great, CW used a slew of bolts to "engineer" another cool looking sport climb. But if that climb takes good, natural gear, it could have been so much more than an outdoor gym route.
I'm paraphrasing an old, dead climber when I say "They're chipping 5.13 routes now, but will soon be looking for natural 5.14 lines."
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
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I predict Archangel will also be led on gear without clipping the bolts(except the anchors).
Already talking about it on mountain proj! I'm rackin' up!
Ultimately I do not care that it got "fully" bolted for todays "modern hardman" climber, it just would have been nice if Chris W. asked the first ascensionist or did more research and talked to the climbers who put up routes in Dream Canyon or at least stepped up to the plate and tried leading it on gear before proceeding with the bolting.
If Chris W. had talked to the Thom B. and others active in Dream Canyon or had tried to lead it on gear ,at least report that in the route data base. Either way its going to make a good story!
^^^Yup!! And already a good story for us cubicle pukes!
Don't you'all go gettin yourself riled up over JLP's negative comments; he brings in the bitter and negativety to most of his posts and he obviously has a little man-love for these guys and doesn't like seeing thier precious nuts being de-cupped.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
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Pretty lame point of view, and sad to think some folks actually think this is a valid stance.
Lame from what point of view? ethics? whose? a hiker looking up at 3 bolts, then a section that takes gear, and then a few more bolts then a chain anchor doesn't know the difference this 20' of runout means to 'ethical' climbers.
But admittedly, I don't necessarily believe my statement entirely, but it is worth considering. Many routes in the Needles have significant runouts on a single bolt or pin. The rock has been altered, that is unquestionable, the question is to what degree. The FAs in the Needles made the decision to protect at where they themselves felt was appriate to the line of boldness they themselves wanted to ride and the understood ethics of the area, but holes were drilled, just a question of how many limits subsequent ascents.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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In fact, bouldering and trad are quickest growing areas of the sport.
Bouldering, absolutely - no confusing ropes or nasty harnesses spoiling the lines of those perfect derrieres. Why here in PDX we have several bouldering-only gyms. Hell, I know more than a couple of folks bouldering V5-7 who have been at it since those gyms opened and none of them have ever climbed roped or outside more than once. And then they found the experience entirely disagreeable as it was nothing like what they did and they're still pulling down hard on plastic today.
But trad? As a percentage of the total climbing demographic? Dude, that number has, and continues to, plunge so a slight up-tick while deep diving to a single digit percentage hardly counts as "growing". You're confusing a still very small percentage of a overall growing demographic as 'growth' when the opposite is actually the reality. Oh, and let's be honest here, the vast majority of them aren't trad climbing, they're sport climbing on gear dogging their way up routes. The use of gear as the sole definition of 'trad' climbing is simply another way of co-opting it and pushing it further from 'climbing' into the shadowy oblivion of 'adventure climbing'.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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Lame from what point of view?
patrick, many folks free climb to feel what it's like to get up sections of stone using what's naturally there. The addition of bolts next to naturally-available protection is in direct contrast to the basic principle of free climbing.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
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Trying to figure out what is more retarded, refitting a route without permission or climbing refitted route & skipping the bolts? What's the point? The bolts are there, giving u a cop out in case u forgot your low balls.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
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Trying to figure out what is more retarded, refitting a route without permission or ... 200+ posts of wankery on the internet.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
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The "basic principle of free-climbing" is being rapidly cast aside in the march to safely commoditize rock for accommodate a broadly lower common denominator. Some view that as a big 'win' for climbing, others view it as just another mundane form of suburbanization.
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