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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 15, 2013 - 10:55am PT
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With a fire, at least the guy had a chance to come out. If they blew him out with mortar fire or whatever, no chance. He still had a choice till the end to fly the white flag, which is what he should have done, and then told his story. I doubt they would have let him come out alive though it seems.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 15, 2013 - 11:33am PT
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They could have gotten some 8' x 16' x 1/4" steel plates and leaned them up
against the cabin with a bulldozer and then waited for him to come out.
But at least it saved the taxpayers millions in prosecuting him and giving
him three hots and a cot for life.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Feb 15, 2013 - 11:39am PT
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It is a fact that the longer a standoff goes the more likely the person holed up will surrender. Cops are a lot more patient in other situations. They could have tried waiting the guy out with zero risk to anyone. Obviously they had very little patience, and in a matter of hours burned the guy out. They knew the cabin would go up in flames, come on, a 1927 wood cabin and 7 incendiary devices? Was it wrong to do that? I find it morally wrong, and unprofessional. Maybe they can live with that choice but I would prefer not to have people who prefer to kill in positions of authority.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 15, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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This thing is OVER.
Get a life people.
Both sides were horribly wrong.
Life on this planet goes like this all the time.
Just look at the state of the world today,
The whole world is operating at a horribly wrong level.
People are so unbelievably fuking stupid now a days ......
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 15, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
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But at least it saved the taxpayers millions in prosecuting him and giving
him three hots and a cot for life.
Didn't they also gain the million put up by private donors for his capture??
Ya it's over. Just sweep it under the rug. Nothing to see here..............
Jeeze. This thing reeks to high heaven..
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 15, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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I think the fact that Dorner fired shots from the house gives the cops the authority to use deadly force against him. Although I agree the cops likely had no interest in applying proper due process, Dorner's actions at the house narrowed the cops' alternatives considerably.
I think what a lot of people are missing is that he SHOT AND KILLED A DEPUTY FROM THAT CABIN, and shot and injured another. WTF do you want the cops to do at that point? Sing Kumbaya? If any of you had even casually skimmed Dorner's manifesto it was quite clear that there was no way in hell he was going to be taken alive. He was actively shooting it out till the very end. The lunatic had earlier stalked and killed the daughter of his former supervisor and her fiancé. I was thinking let the fućker roast, and wished him a speedy trip to hell.
But how did the cops know that there was not someone else in the house?
CNN had the son of the woman who owned the cabin on the phone, and he confirmed that the cabin was empty. Furthermore, I would suspect SWAT has some fairly sophisticated surveillance techniques. They're knott likely to tear-gas/set-afire/bulldoze a building with innocents inside (with the world watching on live TV).
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Feb 15, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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he confirmed that the cabin was empty
More like, he confirmed the cabin was unrented. Dorner could have taken a hostage with him into the cabin, but the odds of that were low.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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blahblah:Edit:
I just read GC's link, wherein one commentator made the same point I wrote above. So my post is kind of redundant:
"What difference does it make if one of the officers puts a … round in his head, drives the armored vehicle over his body when they are knocking the building down, or he dies in a conflagration?" said David Klinger, a use-of-force expert at the University of Missouri at St. Louis and a former LAPD officer. "If he is trying to surrender you can't do any of those things … But if he is actively trying to murder people, there's no doubt that deadly force is appropriate and it doesn't matter what method is used to deliver it."
That is a good argument.
If he was still shooting at them, if he was being given the opportunity to surrender and was refusing, they are able to shoot back.
But since there were no hostages at risk, and they were able to drive around the building in a armored vehicle without risk, I suspect that they could have made more efforts to take him alive, if they had wanted to.
Killing people without a trial should be something that "good guys" do only if there is no other choice.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 15, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
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If we were able to land men on the moon over 40 years go (assuming it wasn't faked, LOL), I wouldn't be surprised if SWAT has the means in this day and age to determine whether they have a hostage situation or knott. And as I recall, he ran to the cabin during a shootout with Fish and Game officers; he never left their sight, and there wasn't an opportunity to grab a hostage even if he wanted to. Besides, he clearly didn't want to harm civilians (who weren't connected to law enforcement).
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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Also, I implied above that the LAPD was behind this. I was wrong. They were in San Bernardino County and the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department was in control.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
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I doubt there is any technology that can reliably confirm that there is only a single living human in a house.
And if such technology did exist, I doubt that a city police force would have it readily at hand.
This wasn't just a city police force. This was the Sheriff's Department of a major metropolitan county working with lots of other agencies. They had been focusing on the Big Bear Area for days and had a lot of pre-positioned resources available, including helicopters and armored vehicles. They had multiple SWAT teams, including an FBI SWAT team. They would have the very latest sensory equipment.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 15, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
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He was a cop. All they woulda had to do was put a bag of donuts by the door, right?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
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, he clearly didn't want to harm civilians (who weren't connected to law enforcement).
He kept people prisoners in the house he was hiding out, but then didn't take hostages with him when he left, and didn't take hostages when he carjacked two cars. He told the drivers he didn't want to hurt them and told them to walk away.
But the same guy started by killing two innocent civilians.
He killed four people in all and wounded three others. NONE of the people he killed or wounded had anything to do with his getting fired. None of them were on his target list.
I don't understand why there are people who think he is a hero.
I still think the goal should have been to capture him alive and put him on trial.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 15, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
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the problem is, that when we accept routine conspiracy to murder as being an acceptable operating method, we have lost control of due process.
The problem with this is that the person is meeting the conflict at a different level than the conflict itself, which in the real world is where both the perp and the cops meet up.
It's a simple power play. Cops are hired to control things that are otherwise dangerous. If they need apply deadly force, we trust them to do so for our well being.
When a perp challenges that control with even greater force, we have a classic power struggle, and the game is officially "on." Owing to superior numbers and resolve, the cops have the upper hand - except in places like Mexico, where the line between narcos and policia are often blurred.
The constant in all of this is the body count and killing. In matters of power and control, killing has always been the end game. Wanting to change the rules of engagement is maybe a noble thought but it's only a thought, whereas power struggles operate on much stronger, more primitive levels.
JL
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Feb 15, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
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10 bucks says the LAPD (or whichever responsible agency) tells the owners of the cabin to pound sand when they seek reimbursement and that the insurance company says the act of war exclusion was triggered.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Feb 15, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
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[grudgingly] " we trust them to do so for our well being "
and they still need a ton of oversight.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Feb 15, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
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I was thinking let the fućker roast, and wished him a speedy trip to hell.
With police involved, I doubt if Chris Dorner is the only one in this story who might have a speedy trip to hell in store for him.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Feb 15, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
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There must always be oversight of police forces. For our good & there good. That said The LAPD for all of it's problems is one of the finest police department in the world.
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