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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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We just spent New Years in Rosarito. Had a great time, stayed on the beach. Weather was a bit cool, but the one really nice day we drove down the coastal road to Ensenada. No problems.
Yes, you have to be a bit more cautious when traveling in Mexico, and I wouldn't go anywhere near Juarez anymore. For me, going there isn't much different then going to the "bad" part of town. Keep your head on a swivel, don't be flashy, loud or wear expensive clothes, and you're usually good to go. A little common sense goes a long ways.
Granted, Mexico is no where near as safe as it was when I was spending a lot of time down there 17 years ago, but it's still possible to be there and be relatively safe.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Bolderado
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By all means, go to Enchanted Rock, Riley. It's the best times of the year just now. The kids will LOVE it. PM if needed.
Keith
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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+ 1 Manny
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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(Reuters) - Wielding machetes and rusty shotguns, a motley crew in face masks escorts dozens of captives onto a basketball court to face a public "trial" for suspected ties to criminal gangs.
This is Wild West justice, Mexican-style.
Outraged at relentless extortion, kidnapping and theft as a wave of drug-related violence washes over Mexico, farmers, shopkeepers and other residents in the mountainous southern state of Guerrero are taking the law into their own hands as "community police."
Both state and federal police as well as the military leave them to their own devices, manning checkpoints at entries to towns, but venturing no farther.
T-shirts pulled over their faces with holes cut for the eyes and nose, dozens of gunmen on Thursday flanked the tiny square in the hamlet of El Mezon, where more than 50 prisoners were paraded in public and accused of crimes from murder to rape to theft. No real evidence against them was presented.
The vigilante justice underscores a serious challenge facing new President Enrique Pena Nieto, who has vowed to shift the focus away from a head-to-head fight with drug-smuggling cartels that has killed up to 70,000 people in the past six years and to a more effective campaign against extortion and violence.
He plans to create a civilian-led police force made up of former military personnel that will replace the armed forces in the field, although until then, the government will keep troops out on patrol to deter violence.
Many Mexicans have little faith in police forces or the justice system. In this corner of the country, they are taking on the job themselves.
One of the gunmen watching over the alleged criminals on Thursday wore a Mexican "lucha libre" wrestler's mask, another a Spider-Man hood and a shotgun slung over his back. Some curled their fingers nervously over triggers.
They paraded the accused in groups of five in front of hundreds of onlookers. A collective gasp rose when one man was accused of murder by dismembering, a common trademark of gruesome gangland killings. He stared back at the crowd with an impassive smile.
Some local leaders gave testimony about how they themselves had been kidnapped by the accused. Sentencing will come later, organizers say.
"Many people saw it when they grabbed me. They stroked my shoulder and said they would kill me," one community police leader told the assembly.
"In my mind, I am dead, I haven't been able to get over it."
EXTORTION, KIDNAPPINGS
Communities in the folds of rugged mountains east of the once-thriving and now gang-infested beach resort of Acapulco say police are often in cahoots with criminals, do nothing when crimes are reported and ask for bribes themselves.
Extortion has flared in and around Acapulco over the past five years after two cartels clashed and one fragmented, creating a series of mini-cartels and kidnap gangs.
"We are victims of extortion, of injustice. We have been abused," said Bruno Placido Valerio, who coordinates community police groups in 20 towns and villages - a total of about 240 gunmen.
"The people are indignant at so much abuse. But we are not seeking anarchy or aiming to take justice into our own hands, but rather find a way out from the problem we are living with."
While community self-protection is a tradition in some parts of Mexico, these more radical community policing groups are an offshoot that started to form in early January.
His eyes peering out from behind a black ski-mask and clutching an aging .22-caliber rifle, a man who goes by the nickname "El Ciclon" or "The Cyclone," kept watch over residents of nearby communities attending the start of Thursday's "trial."
He and others covered their faces to remain anonymous and avoid reprisals from friends of the captives, or from government authorities.
"The people are fed up," the 45-year-old farmhand said. "Our government doesn't back us, so we decided to try to clear away all the bad people. We have to get rid of these animals."
On the eve of the trial, Guerrero state officials staged a last-ditch push to defuse the situation, but to no avail. The communities must now debate whether to impose their own punishments, or opt to turn them over to the real courts.
Some are demanding an eye for an eye.
RAPISTS 'SHOULD BE RAPED'
"They must be punished in line with the crime," said Odila Gonzalez Rios, who oversees community policing in the settlement of Copala, near the Pacific coast. "If they have raped, then they should be raped to see how it feels."
"If they have killed? The same. ... They must die, because otherwise this will never end," she said. "Do to them what they have done to others."
Acapulco last year earned the dubious distinction of being the murder capital of Mexico.
Police pickup trucks patrol Guerrero state, bristling with semi-automatic weapons. Sandwiched between supermarket advertisements on the radio, advice is broadcast on how to anonymously denounce organized crime.
The community policing "people power" approach comes at a cost. With so many guns openly held against the law, school absenteeism has soared.
"Closing schools is no way to combat the social cancer of insecurity," said Silvia Romero Suarez, Guerrero state's education minister. "It impacts our schools because teachers are afraid and parents fear sending their children to class."
The flourishing of community police groups in Colombia was a major factor in a deep spiral of violence that country grappled with as drug gangs co-opted them in the fight against Marxist guerrillas.
Mexico's government now faces a careful balancing act in handling the issue to avoid stoking demands for self-determination elsewhere, like in the southern state of Chiapas.
In the meantime, it is allowing gunmen to operate outside the law.
"This is a violation of human rights. They are violating people's right to freedom," said Oscar Ortiz, a law professor based in Acapulco. "The Mexican state, and that of Guerrero in particular, should get into gear because you cannot permit the law to be broken like this."
But some local officials insist the push for justice is forcing criminals to think again and making the area safer.
"They have filled us, the authorities, with courage, I can't hide or deny that," said Severo Castro Godinez, mayor in the town of Ayutla.
"Fortunately today, thanks to this movement, Ayutla is at peace. ... The community police are good people. They are responsible citizens. They are not looking to kill, they are looking to correct social behavior."
(Additional reporting by Luis Enrique Martinez; Editing by Kieran Murray)
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Manny, didn’t mean to be dick and say it was a “stupid” comment, I should have stayed civil and just said I don’t agree with it. In my opinion the word gets thrown around way to easily, especially lately.
At what point does ignorance become racism? Is there any difference you think? If racism is just simply making ignorant comments, than what do we call people who actually walk around all day thinking they truly are above other human beings that don't share the same skin tone, culture, etc.. What do call those people that truly feel you shouldn't be able to drink from a drinking fountain. Is there “Racism” and then there is “Racism light” or what? Am “I” just ignorant to the word racism and don’t realize it encompasses many meanings? I’m willing to learn.
"I see a lot of over the top comments here"
Exactly, that's what I see from some posters here. over the top comments, I would not classify them as comments that are meant to be racist or by people that are racist. Do you call Hispanics that make comments about taking back California and kicking out the Gringos as making hostile racist threats, do you think they are racist, or just making stupid ignorant comments? I have not seen anything that said anything to the effect of "we should exterminate all the Mexicans". If you have than post the quote if you would like. All I see is people saying we should exterminate the cartels. There are many on here who you can tell by their posts don’t blame the Mexican people, but rather the US or Mexican governments, cartels, corruption, etc..
Toadgas wrote:
"it's a cultural-genetic thing, that bloodthirsty level of ultra-violence
...linked to their Aztec/Mayan heritage
check out Apocalypto by Mel Gibson"
That is an ignorant comment, but do you really believe Toadgas walks around thinking he is above you or I. If Toadgas were to read history and learn that Mexicans, are not blood thirsty because of their past cultures and still insisted on believing this, then I would say he is racist. I believe true racism requires an effort to stay ignorant in the face of other overwhelming facts. I don’t know, I just didn’t feel any “racial hostility” coming from this thread. I see "over the top comments". But perhaps I have been too brainwashed living here with the Gringos and don’t know what is good for me. Perhaps he really is racist and will claims so, I don't know.
Sorry you had to deal with racism. What part of Latin America did you grow up that had “Whites Only” signs? I know there is racism in Latin America towards the less white looking or straight up indigenous Latin Americans, but I have never seen or heard of signs like these. My mother was literally born in a grass hut, is obviously of indigenous background and was adopted into a home where she was only treated like everyone else by my grandmother that adopted her and some cousins, she has told me of the discrimination she suffered in her own home, but nothing about public things like this. Not saying I don’t believe you, just wanted to learn some stuff here. Didn’t know about this before.
By the way ToadGas, not sure if you were just joking, as that comment “was” pretty ignorant, but Hollywood movies I would assume you know aren’t the best places to get the real history of other cultures or countries. Besides it shows the Spanish landing in Mexico at the height of the Mayan culture which was way off. The only Mayan temples the Spanish saw had been overgrown with vegetation for hundreds of years. I guess good ol’ Mel was trying to mix Aztecs in with the Mayans. The Spanish and French were more violent, at least the Mayans, Aztecs, etcc., they did it for religious reasons not just to take over sh#t. Still very gruesome indeed.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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I'll never forget my Mexican friend here in the US who once wore a t-shirt to work (dishwasher) with a massive swastika on it.
I wonder, is saying Mexicans are good people just as racist as saying Mexicans are bad people? The connotation is different, but what about the strict definition?
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Dirt Claud, I am not offended that you say I' stupid. I tend to agree that I can be. I have often been in your shoes.
What you wonder about, racism v. ignorance is simple in my mind. Ignorance can be resolved with the proper information. Racism is different. You have to believe that your race is superior to others, usually a belief held by every race. Acting with hatred and intolerance towards another race is bigotry. We can all agree that every race has its bigots. I try to control my sense of superiority, but it's difficult at times.
Not all of the outrageous statements, some over the top certainly, were meant as anything more than blowing off steam, I'm sure. It is a horrible situation we are dealing with on both sides of the border. Many more will die until we find a solution. The solution requires action inside and outside Mexico.
I was born in Arizona almost 60 years ago. It wasn't difficult to know your place then. I remember a lot of things changing, racially, that were difficult for all.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Ron, I must have misunderstood your initial statement:
"Ive mentioned that before Hankster! Im all for that. We go around the globe to free countries under the rule of the ruthless yet we put up with a neighboring country that floods us as well with problematic types as they attempt to escape what is nothing but a large cesspool of murder rape and pillage. And we DO NOTHING about that.."
It sounds as though Mexico/Mexicans is a "large cesspool" or was it something I don't understand about your statement?
I totally agree with you that the cartels are every bit as dangerous as Al-q and closer.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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"But nobody should downplay the changes that have occurred in Mexico or the dangers."
I agree, this is what irks me the most about this thread and the one on MP. I just wrote a post on MP saying the same thing.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Just to clarify, you think the US should go into Mexico and stop the cartels Ron?
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Of course the Mexicans would welcome us with open arms like in Iraq, and everyone would live happily ever after like in every other country we have intervened in.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Weather it's a good idea or not. The problem is many Mexicans would feel the "Imperialistic" USA is just trying to take over Mexico and the Mexican news media would make it look that way as well.
Edit: F*#k that Pancho Villa guy Ron, the real revolutionary was Emiliano Zapata.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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The average Mexican would not, welcome the US. I've lived there, I speak the language, I know the country well. Your Iranian friend is an N: of 1. I also firmly believe change has to come from the inside for it to be lasting, we have zero track record of foreign intervention actually ever working to enact a lasting change in the last 30 or so years, we have a long track record of destabilizing countries, we have a debt to take care of, and an obvious non-violent solution to the problem. So I disagree.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Two middle aged white males were slaughtered by another middle aged white male in Phoenix. Then he killed himself. Violence is universal, not just limited to Mexicans and gang bangers.
I'd like to see the facts showing that illegal aliens take any significant portion of the USA's debt. I think there are plenty of freeloaders on the govt dime, corporations for instance. Why do we pay Big Oil billions in subsidys? Oh, I know, they're all-american. Or maybe not.
The USA needs to retool itself and focus on domestic issues before we can school the world.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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viva la raza
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Ron, whether I agree or disagree with what you just wrote is irrelevant, the outcome of what you are suggesting is what matters.
Sending troops into Mexico would not make the situation better, it would make it worse, we would have a much worse situation on our hands. I guarantee you of that. Our track record with foreign intervention is one of destabilization, not stabilization. We simply don't know what we are doing when it comes to these things, and our hands are tied as a country by a binary two party way of thinking that prevents us from being able to effect change in another country even if we knew how to do it.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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"Why the hell we put up with hundreds of thousands of KNOWN gang members is beyond me..."
The same reason we put up with ignorant racist f*#ks from moundhouse.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Ron, the ethnicity figures I don't doubt; the hatred you feel from cholos, I don't doubt. The citizenship is what you referred to as far as feeding off the govt tit, illegal aliens. But ethnicity and citizenship are two different things.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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"You're a pathetic, lying as#@&%e."
As much as I love Mexico I experienced my share of racism down there. I was spit on, rocks thrown at me. A good friend of mine was murdered here in the US in what I think may have been a partially racist attack (he and the other victims were white, the killers were black and the attack was brutal and unfounded). It is a two way street. I think the answer is to not get on it. Accept people for who they are as individuals when you meet them.
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